Burkini banned in France

[LifeIsGoodish]

Instead of teaching people to behave with respect to each other.

Burkini banned in France

Banning young girls from having to dress 'modestly' is far from banning religion

That is your interpretation. People who believe that it is their religious duty to dress modestly would not agree with you.

How did we get from adult women on the beach to young girls at school?

Sorry I didn't mean to derail, I was just so shocked! At the time of the burkha ban in France there were about 300 women in burkhas in the entire country.

And this couldn't be done without not covering their hair

Then it has to be banned how can we allow such extreme views to be tolerated and practised in our society it isn't progressive at all it's just allowing the oppression of females

Young girls should never have to cover their heads it's damaging to them and it's damaging for society as a whole to allow this oppression of girls from such a young age

Young girls should never have to cover their heads it's damaging to them and it's damaging for society as a whole to allow this oppression of girls from such a young age

We view not covering our heads as normal, but not that long ago women were supposed to wear hats or scarves outside the house. So did men.

We are also expected to cover our chests (although mostly tolerated at the beach, but not everywhere), although men don't.

For the sake of argument, what is the big difference between covering heads or chests?
It's mostly of degree. Hardly damaging for those covering their heads, not more than covering chests. This kind of language is counterproductive in these discussions.
The big problem is oppression in terms of not being able to choose a lifestyle that they want: marry who they want, have the career they want, go where they want.
I know muslim women that take the covering part very seriously and are probably more feminist than many people shocked at covering on this thread.

But young girls are not making that choice they are being given a message that they need to be modest and why is that

It's oppression of women the reasons in all religions for modesty of course this is about Islam not that has not progressed as other religions have and has in many countries taken huge steps back

Will it ever progress I don't know that's a whole new argument

more feminist in what way they choose to not dress for men ?

You missed the point of my post.

Freedom is about a lot more than choice of clothes.

The clothes we wear, and yes, from childhood, are limited by our society.
Who's to say that a muslim child that covers her head is more oppressed than a non-muslim child that covers her bottom? None of them are allowed to go naked. It's all down to the society we are in, and there are different degrees of expectation.

I really don't know how to explain it better.

No i get the point you are making

A young girl choosing to cover her head to keep modest what messages has she received why does a young girl need to be modest

I am sure you know the reasons for such modesty

Chilli pepper: you're distorting my position and I think you know that. My point about the Stalin t shirt was a joke but not the Israel t shirt. If I wore that in school the chances are I'd be sent to Coventry by 2/3 of the parent group. That's just the way it is in the borough I live in.

I fully understand this is forbidden territory for most mums-netters but there's a subtle and insidious form of censorship in our schools now whereby heads and senior staff will never quite challenge the radicalisation that is happening. Prevent is hated, both by staff and parents, and the radicalisation will continue until a tipping point is reached.

But let's face it, we are talking at cross purposes. You are talking about a free speech/expression principle. I'm not, I'm talking about a culture of confusion, obfuscation apologism and denial which has festered and never been dealt with. I could give you example after example but won't, mainly for reasons of personal safety and professional reputation.

Yes it's that serious. And we'll all talk about rights and respect and protection until our very own 9/11 happens.

Young girls should never have to cover their heads it's damaging to them and it's damaging for society as a whole to allow this oppression of girls from such a young age

At my old school a hat was part of the uniform. You could get into trouble if a teacher saw you outside school not wearing the school hat. I don't know why. The hat used to cause endless amusement to boys on the school bus. Maybe it was supposed to build fortitude in the face of adversity?

You are missing the point.

And it should be "more modest".
We all have different degrees of modesty. That is the point.
Our western standards are fairly minimal, but still higher than Amazonian Indians (before contact).

We impose our standards on our children too, as we don't go about like the family on the figure.

In that sense our children are as oppressed as muslim girls who have to cover their heads. You only have to see the number of MNetters complaining about their children ditching their clothes and running around naked.

I agree that the head covering often goes along true oppression in terms of choices and value in the community. I'd also discourage covering heads towards real freedom in terms of choices of clothes, and certainly to match the male standards, but with the certainty that I'd be more worried about making sure the girls had proper education and could choose what to do with their lives.
This is why I don't get so up in arms about head covers.

Did you have to wear the hat in class

And out of school at the weekend and in the school holidays?

We might all have different degrees of modesty but a young girl has no need to be modest she isn't sexual (to most men) and she has no honour to carry she is a child that should be free from such oppressive restrictions

This is an example where progression and religious freedom can not always work in harmony and choices have to be made and that also takes away choices

And yes I agree marmite for some reason one I do not really understand we have turned a blind eye to the growth in extremism, we have allowed cruelty to women and girls in the name of religion, allowing freedom of religion and in particular with Islam. I can only put it down to Muslim females are not valued as highly in society as other females if this was happening with young white middle class girls it just wouldn't be tolerated

We can't be a progressive society and turn a blind eye to the oppression of young girls

Marmite I grew up in North London. I went to school in North London. I have even taught in North London. I have NEVER seen a 4 year old or any primary aged child in a niqab. If what you say is true which I doubt (more likely like a lot of posters here you don't know what your talking about and have gotten hijab and niqab mixed up) it is an exceptional and absurd case. I know a lot of Muslims and I can say without any doubt all of them would think it extreme to the the point of child abuse to put a child in niqab. I just don't believe this happened.

I know the difference

I was referring to a head scarf (covering hair)

Did you have to wear the hat in class

No, but I have never been told not to wear a hat either. DD is yet to find an outfit that she doesn't feel could be improved by a beanie.

However that isn't really relevant.

Banning head cover just makes it more attractive. Many young people attracted to extremist movements have parents who aren't particularly observant. Adopting fundamentalist practices is an act of rebellion.

It is far more effective to tolerate differences and include where possible than to look for reasons to exclude.

Of course it will make it more attractive to some

Would it lead to extremism well we have that issue already and for some it might do

Why not allow men to have more than one wife if they all agree what's the problem

Apart from women having been told be a religion that it is ok for men to have four wives (though not all Muslims believe this to be the case or want to)

It is not compulsory for Muslims to have more than 1 wife. In fact in the majority of Muslim countries monogamy is the norm because women do not accept it. However for many mainstream muslims hijab is considered a religious requirement just like praying 5 times a day or fasting in Ramadan or even men having a beard which is also considered a religious requirement.

To accommodate polygamy we would need to change the law. But there is nothing in the law which says that covering the head is not allowed. What you and other posters are proposing is that we change the law to make it illegal for Muslim women in particular to cover their heads.

I live in an area with a lot of Nepalese people. Almost all older women cover their heads. Many Sikh women cover their heads partially with a scarf. Some Jewish women cover their heads with wigs. Plymouth Brethren christians also partially cover their heads. Some Sikh men and boys, jewish men and boys as well as Muslim men and boys also cover their heads. Do you have a problem with all of these people covering their heads or is your distaste only reserved for Muslim women? Can you guarantee that all of these groups cover out of choice or are not under cultural or societal pressure to do so? If you have a problem with Muslim girls in school covering their heads what about Jewish boys or Sikh boys? Your interpretation is that it is about modesty but it is not always about that. There are many different reasons why women choose to wear headscarf. For many its about identity and being proud of affiliating themselves with their religion. Modesty in Islam is also much more complex then covering skin. It's also about being modest in actions, in speech and behaviour. It has all of the connotations that the word has in English and many more as well. Muslim women and girls should be free to decide for themselves how their idea of modesty looks like within reason. I also don't like niqab in the west but more because I think it isolates the women from the rest of society and makes them the primary targets of anti Muslim abuse. See I just don't buy this whole idea of disliking islam because of how women are treated when Muslim women are the biggest victims of anti Muslim attacks and prejudice. The number of Muslim women who are verbally and physically attacked compared to muslim men by those who are antimuslim/anti-islam is disproportionately high.

Also for the person who said 30-40 years ago Muslims women in muslim countries did not cover as much as they do now. Well what was the situation like in those countries 30-40 years ago? For the North African ones at least they had just come out of colonial rule where islamic observance was actively discouraged and sometimes violently opposed. I remember reading about how the French in particular were very brutal, destroying mosques, Islamic schools and persecuting religious orders like the sufi groups. The British as well imprisoned many muslim scholars and also tried to stamp out islamic religiosity.

In that context it makes sense why women were less likely to cover then having grown up in an environment where it was disadvantageous and even dangerous to cover islamically. Over time people were able to rediscover their cultural and religious heritage and to see it without the lens imposed on them by colonial rule. That is most likely why we see a greater number of women wearing hijab now in some of these countries.

The spread of niqab and burka is definitely connected to Saudi Arabia propagating their interpretation of Islam around the world. However as we have already seen the French government do not have a problem with Saudi doing this considering they have signed a 13 billion dollar arms deal to essentially protect and preserve the regime there. Some posters here have also expressed they do not have a problem with Western governments supporting Saudi financially, militarily and politically despite its atrocious reputation and record with regards to women's rights. But then they will swear that their opposition to headscarves and other Muslim women's modest dress is because some Muslim women in countries like Saudi don't have a choice not to wear it and they think it oppresses women's rights. Uh...am I the only one getting confused by these contradictions.

And how is a girl of five years old free from influence and mature enough to make such a decision that she needs to keep some part of her hidden

It's not Islam as such it's the interpretation of Islam that has taken hold that is damaging I think girls are only required to wear hijab from puberty

Sadly women are more often attacked because they are easier targets

Yes I know what modesty is about and I know pologomy is against the law in some Muslim counties these countries were progressing for women and young girls until recently

Are we seeing the oppression of Jewish and Sikh boys and like many Muslim men might wear a head covering when praying and at other times there is not the restrictions around them to keep themselves modest, it is a requirement but let's not pretend that a mans modesty and a girls/woman's is coming from the same ideas of why it is required

Needabreaknow, that you for clarifying that point about the niqab in uk primary schools.

I had read elsewhere that the burkha only came into being as a way of defending women from European colonial men, who didn't think that raping a "native" woman was anywhere on a par with raping one of their own kind.

The full covering of women was about before Islam it was a way slave traders exported and protected their goods those goods being girls and women virgins sold for more

Something we have seen ISIS repeat in the last few years

I haven't seen any support for Saudi on this thread

No not support of Saudi but no condemnation of France militarily supporting the Saudi regime making it harder for opposition groups there to challenge the regime. In fact if my memory serves me correctly it was you who supported Frances right to do so. That totally nullified the argument that this is about improving the lives of Muslim women or opposing the spread of ultra conservative islam when you are happy for western governments to support the biggest exporter of it.

Marmite I grew up in North London. I went to school in North London. I have even taught in North London. I have NEVER seen a 4 year old or any primary aged child in a niqab. If what you say is true which I doubt (more likely like a lot of posters here you don't know what your talking about and have gotten hijab and niqab mixed up) it is an exceptional and absurd case. I know a lot of Muslims and I can say without any doubt all of them would think it extreme to the the point of child abuse to put a child in niqab. I just don't believe this happened.

Fair enough, I've done a bit of research and did get the headgear confused. The girls I see at school wear the al amara I think in the main, which appears to be the niqab but without the partial face covering. Honest mistake, sorry to all for any confusion!

If there isn't a face covering it's not a niqab.

Where have I said I am happy for the UK to have such close connections to Saudi

I said we need an ally in the ME unfortunately there isn't another country that can be at the moment and governments do business with bad/nasty/repressive governments it's a fact of politics do i support it of course i don't (and didn't vote in this government)

I am also well aware of where the Wahhabism money comes from and want all governments to start taking a stand against this we have turned a blind eye for far too long this I have posted many times

I do not support the ban I understand why France has supported the ban. That doesn't mean I wasn't upset that a women was being made to take of her scarf and tunic by armed police I was also horrified that armed police are having to patrol beaches in southern France that is how bad things have got and that has been totally lost now in the burkini argument

And neither did I say banning the burkini was for the good of Muslim women I strongly object to young girls covering they have no need to be modest and I do not want to see the niqab being accepted as its a form of oppression it was designed to keep women seperate from the rest of society there is nothing progressive about that

Like I have said before progression and religious freedom often clash