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Burkini banned in France

732 replies

LifeIsGoodish · 17/08/2016 09:23

Instead of teaching people to behave with respect to each other.

Burkini banned in France

AngrySadConfused

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Lweji · 01/09/2016 18:20

People also tend to conform to the societal norm of using proper grammar and spelling.

Lweji · 01/09/2016 18:25

More to the point, lots of people cover their heads on the beach. Hats, hoods (yes, the life guards where I go would be banned too.), scarves, caps, etc.

Some people stand out by wearing less common clothes, dying their hair different colours, practice unusual sports, whatever.

So, what? We are not all the same. Vive la différence! Oh, wait...

chilipepper20 · 01/09/2016 20:06

You can cover with out standing out so it clearly political

it's illegal now to make a political statement?

Oliversmumsarmy · 02/09/2016 10:10

Everyone here thinks no one has a right to tell a person what they can or cannot wear yet over the last few weeks I have read about how teenage girls shouldn't wear crop tops, how Gordon Ramsay should take control and teach his dd's self respect, that they are easy pickings and other horrendous comments.
How many agreed with those comments yet are up in arms when Muslim women are told what appropriate beachwear is.

Lweji · 02/09/2016 11:02

How many agreed with those comments yet are up in arms when Muslim women are told what appropriate beachwear is.

I don't know.
Why don't you check the names and let us know?

BTW, what is appropriate beachwear?

ErrolTheDragon · 02/09/2016 11:15

I didn't see that thread and certainly wouldn't have agreed with it.' Gordon Ramsay should take control and teach his dd's self respect,' FFS, self respect isn't borne of other people telling you what to wear.

Marmite59 · 02/09/2016 12:46

What oliversmumsarmy is saying, I think, is that there is a selectivity to people's liberal red lines that is sometimes galling and, on the face of it, hypocritical.

A great example of this was the progressive reaction to the murder of several black people in Louisiana by a disturbed young white man, Dylan Rooff I think he was called. Within hours the guardian had produced several articles calling this an act of White supremacy and indicative of institutional racism. It might or it might not, but when an Islamist atrocity is committed we are told not to jump to conclusions, that this is not Islam, to beware of the backlash etc.

Now I'm on the left, or at least until ISIS came along I was. So think how your average joe views this. They see a metropolitan left who are more interested in protecting the rights of international groups or cultures than their own. And if you don't think that was a factor in Brexit then think again.

It seems to me that the new left almost gets excited by stuff like the Burkini ban, reprehensible though it is. It's another opportunity to stick it to the man, to have a go at the west, all the while ignoring what Islamic conservative dress really represents, which is the suppression of rights that those same liberals would shout from the rooftops before you could say 'evil white patriarchy'.

chilipepper20 · 02/09/2016 14:03

marmite

I agree, and I am not sure what we can do about it other than stick to our principles and call a spade a spade.

It's reprehensible the tiptoeing around about violence in the islamic world done in the name of islam, and how silent and self censoring the left is about it. It's a fear of being labelled a racist, or perhaps more charitably, thinking it is racist to criticize islam and therefore not doing it. The problem is that the victims of this self censoring are really oppressed minorities (gays, women, reformers in the muslim community) and they are being forgotten to protect the rather not so oppressed majority of muslims in general.

So I say there is nothing wrong with criticizing the burkini and it's paternalistic origins. But banning garments seems to buy us nothing, and we (left, liberals, the west) become guilty of being paternalistic ourselves.

Atenco · 02/09/2016 14:08

Marmite59 You choose to believe that ISIS embodies the belief system of 2 billion people. You choose to believe that the petty thieves and drug addicts who mostly carry out the "Islamic" terrorist attacks in Europe are representative of a religion that forbids alcohol and is also condemned for advocating cutting the hands of thieves. And you choose to punish these terrorists by making women dress in a way that they find inappropriate?

chilipepper20 · 02/09/2016 14:19

You choose to believe that ISIS embodies the belief system of 2 billion people.

I think this is precisely the kind of thing marmite was talking about. somehow, when maniacs do crazy things and profess it is because of ISIS and islam, they are wrong. it's not that they embody the belief of 2 billion people, it's that they have common beliefs, many of which lead to bad things. Discussing those links shouldn't be met with accusations of racism.

what evidence is there that ISIS are just a band of petty thieves and drug addicts?

I agree, punishing women for wearing garments is a silly way to fight this.

Marmite59 · 02/09/2016 14:49

Thanks chilli.

Atenco: I'm pretty sure the three girls from Bethnal Green weren't petty thieves etc. Nor the doctors, scientists and engineers. I don't know where you get your information from on IS but it is seriously flawed

And I agree. It is a terrible law and is in the process of being reversed. What I find distasteful is the francophobic undertones of some of the posts on here.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 02/09/2016 14:58

there is a selectivity to people's liberal red lines that is sometimes galling and, on the face of it, hypocritical

Tell me about it ... and exactly why do we keep seeing this suggestion that anyone who dares to raise the least criticism is damning ALL muslims? I've genuinely never seen anyone blame all of any group ... and if they did it would be quite rightly deleted ... so what on earth's the point in insisting it's so? Confused

chilipepper20 · 02/09/2016 15:09

What I find distasteful is the francophobic undertones of some of the posts on here.

come on now. Let's not use the word francophobic as loosely as liberals use the word islamphobic.

Atenco · 02/09/2016 15:26

Have the three girls from Bethnal Green been discovered perpetrating terrorist acts?

I was referring to the people who have been identified as responsible for terrorist acts in Europe.

Marmite59 · 02/09/2016 16:01

Have the three girls from Bethnal Green been discovered perpetrating terrorist acts?

No idea. You? I do know they decided to join a terrorist organisation. No sympathy from me I'm afraid.

Chill: fair enough. However I stand by my view that western countries are held to an impossible standard on these matters. Those same standards are persistently waived for 'post colonial' countries. It's kinda like 'well, you should no better but you had it coming anyway so suck it up'. I saw this in spades around Charlie Hebdo. It was kinda like 'well that's unfortunate but if you really must post blasphemy what do you expect'. The French need and deserve more credit and are nonplussed by the ambivalent attitude of the British. A French friend of mine expressed it thus: 'you're secretly glad this is happening to us, so you get to express sadness without solidarity, regret mixed with contempt'. Then you get lovely people like Will Self pontificating 'nous somme terrorists'. It's the same philosophy that saw Stop the War post The West Reaps the Whirlwind after the Paris attacks.

At some point this will happen to us. I know from my work that radicalisation is happening and it's virtually unstoppable. I've seen the new Islamic conservatism up front and it's not pretty. I think British society and the bien pensant are in deep denial. I'll continue to pray every time I get on the tube and hope it won't but fear it will. It will be interesting to see how/if public attitudes change then. I hope they won't, I hope we can keep our tolerance but fear this same tolerance will be our undoing.

Anyway, enough. Nobody likes a Cassandra. Peace we out.

Tealedidallthewalking · 02/09/2016 16:10

Burkinis are totally different to wetsuits, what a stupid remark!!! They are symbolic of a discriminatory and deeply misogynist culture that is positively obsessed over women's "purity, modesty and dignity". There's no place for this in a secular, liberal democratic country like France or here either, (if I had my way). I dont buy into all this shit about respecting a women's choice to wear what she likes.

Take a look at Muslim women in Syria jumping for joy and stripping off their enforced garb after those IS monsters ran for the hills. therightscoop.com/awesome-video-of-syrian-women-joyously-throwing-off-islamic-robes-after-escaping-isis/

Its not the culture in France and by doing it, your creating segregation and refusing to integrate. If you dont like France's secular laws and are not prepared to obey them, then go back to the Islamic theocracy you come from is my advice.

I guess we can expect to see all the half-witted, protesting lefties and Muslim blokes next summer, sitting on the beach in the 35c heat in these hideous, bloody things can we. Feeling all liberated and holy as they cook?

Lweji · 02/09/2016 16:13

I really don't have the same view or have notice the same as you Marmite.

If anything, radicalization is fueled by more extreme reactions like banning burkinis.

It seems that your French people forgot that the UK was also attacked, and not just once. It's just that it has been more recent in France.

But ISIS is the go place for people who enjoy violence and see the world in black and white or like to be told what to do.
It still says very little about the Muslim community in general.

In the same way that the existence of communist guerillas in earlier decades said little about left wing movements.

The extremist right wing movements attract the rest that also enjoy violence.

We need more people in the centre. Not more people advocating us against them.

merrymouse · 02/09/2016 16:26

Mayim Bialik on modest swimwear. The point is not that she is right or wrong, but that people wear 'modest' swim wear for many reasons, not all to do with being oppressed.

I understand that, rightly or wrongly, some citizens of Nice feel threatened by Muslims at the moment. I can see that local councils want to be seen to be doing something.

However, there is no up side to alienating people who just want to take their children to the beach.

ErrolTheDragon · 02/09/2016 16:37

teal - I don't like burkinis but I'd rather see a woman on the beach wearing one on a beach than not see her because her male relatives won't let her go to the beach in anything else (or full-scale day clothes). What is a woman supposed to do, caught up between men who say she's got to cover, and men who say she can't? Do you really think it's her choice whether she stays in France? Attacking women in burkinis is dealing with the smallest symptom, not the disease.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 02/09/2016 17:02

But ISIS is the go place for people who enjoy violence ...

I think you've hit on an important point here. As I've mentioned before, I don't necessarily believe that extremist groups create hate per se, though they certainly encourage it ... instead it seems to me that they channel hate which already exists

The rest is often retrospective justification

chilipepper20 · 02/09/2016 17:06

They are symbolic of a discriminatory and deeply misogynist culture that is positively obsessed over women's "purity, modesty and dignity".

people wear all sorts of things I don't agree with, but that's tough for me. No one is asking you to agree with either the look or the symbolism of the garment. you are free to say you hate it. Frankly, I don't like it either.

There's no place for this in a secular, liberal democratic country like France or here either, (if I had my way). I dont buy into all this shit about respecting a women's choice to wear what she likes.

there's no place for telling women to strip to some arbitrary level exposure in a liberal society either. And it's not "shit" all this talk about respecting women's choice to wear what they want. It's fundamental to a liberal society.

chilipepper20 · 02/09/2016 17:27

However I stand by my view that western countries are held to an impossible standard on these matters.

france is not being held to an impossible standard in this specific case. They are being held to the same standard as similar countries like US, UK and Canada. In fact, they are being held to french standards as expressed in their defence of free speech for journalists.

It was kinda like 'well that's unfortunate but if you really must post blasphemy what do you expect'. The French need and deserve more credit and are nonplussed by the ambivalent attitude of the British.

those responses to the CH massacre were appalling. and lots of people were saying that (some liberals, some muslims). Just appalling. I agree with you there, and soft British attitudes on this (I just read the piece by Will Self, and I was not impressed) need to be criticized.

But that's true with the French in this case. I don't think they are right on this.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 02/09/2016 17:29

How far do you want to go with religious freedom

It's illegal for any doctor here to perform fgm or correct fgm can we tell women they can't have it done its her body so if she travels abroad to have it done and then needs surgery here what is a doctor to do

It's also illegal to have more than one wife

And a woman's word is as equal in a court room as a mans

So when it fits feminist ideology it suits but when it doesn't we should have laws about it

I do not support the burkini ban but I certainly understand why they French authorities have acted in this way it's not just Islamic extremism they are having to deal with its also the far right

The rise is the very conservative forms of Islam can't not be tolerated in liberal countries because it goes against the very ideas of what living in a liberal country stands for

Religion and progression often clash and decisions have to be made what is better for the whole of society and that might include banning of certain religious wear and that is likely to impact Muslim women the most in Europe

Tealedidallthewalking · 02/09/2016 17:36

Well if it was me I think Id sooner stay at home than bake on the beach in that hideous, fucking Penguin costume

The misogynist prick who insists she must cover herself up has to live under the law right, so they cant insist on her wearing a burkini - not if its illegal. If he won't give in, then let him fucking well go on his own and look after the kids. See how he likes it.

Tealedidallthewalking · 02/09/2016 17:38

Well said EnthusiasmDisturbed. I agree with all that.