Burkini banned in France

[LifeIsGoodish]

Instead of teaching people to behave with respect to each other.

Burkini banned in France

Teal many women are making the choice to cover

Saying that the influence of the more conservative Islam is certainly coming from men

EnthusiasmDisturbed

The problem is that FGM is damaging to women, regardless of religion, and it's performed on young women who are not really given a choice.
But if a fully grown woman wants to damage her genitals, in full conscience of what it entails, then it is her choice. See transpeople, for example, who are allowed to have genital surgery.

The burkini ban is ALL about religion. Nobody would bat an eyelid if a french woman decided to cover up to be protected from the sun or from the cold when entering the water.
This ban is also hypocritical. France should either ban all manners of religious manifestations, or should force all women and men to uncover the same.
Again, if I decide to wear a headscarf that doesn't look traditionally muslim nobody would be even remotely upset.

It is certainly a problem that women are falling to extremism and it's something we should be alert to and try our best to counteract, but this is certainly not the way.
And the French who designed these laws don't give a crap about these women.

I go to the beach all year round, whether it is raining or sunny. I go in the sea in February. Some people like going to the beach.

I agree that some things that people do in the name of religion should be against the law. Forcing a woman to dress 'modestly' should be against the law. Allowing her to dress 'modestly' or wear clothes that show that she is a member of a particular religion should not.

Forcing a woman to dress 'modestly' should be against the law. Allowing her to dress 'modestly' or wear clothes that show that she is a member of a particular religion should not.

This

How far do you want to go with religious freedom

of course sometimes religion and modern society clash. Certainly, a line is drawn (or should be drawn) well before my religious right to lop off other people's body parts (even if the person is my child).

But we are talking about clothes that people put on their bodies.

In fact, they are being held to french standards as expressed in their defence of free speech for journalists.

Indeed, and could I mention again that those local laws were ruled invalid by the high court? Because they are not up to French standards.

It is indeed SHIT to say that this is what this is ALL about. That being: this is ALL about a woman's right to choose not to wear a normal swimsuit like all the other women on the beach. Oh alright then, 95% (for all the full-time nit pickers out there) of the women on Western beaches. Because that's what deluded, leftist idiots and Muslim men do to justify this shit.

If you look at Women years ago in Islamic counties, you'll see far fewer of them in full religious garb say 50 to 40 years ago - far less than now. So have all these women in all these countries all decided to change their own, free, autonomous choice at once, or do you think Islam is getting worse for women? Now it's being brought to the West, where its completely at odds with Western culture.

Choice my arse, I'm not saying no woman ever, has made the choice to cover herself up in the street on the beach, ever, wherever, but just apply a little common sense here FFS. Do you suppose the majority of these women would be happier to be at the beach wrapped up in fucking blankets, peering out through eye slits, or in an everyday swimsuit? Burkinis are a bloody aberration to he rest of how French and Western society behaves. If I went to Saudi Arabia I wouldn't go out alone at night wearing a miniskirt and stilettos, even though I might want to, purely out of respect for their culture. Why can't Western culture has the same respect shown to it?

But what is modesty

We can't stop a woman choosing to mutilate her body and for some it is about religion as is wearing a niqab but women are conditioned into thinking this is right for them and where is this coming from

The burkini may represent modesty to some of us but so does the niqab

The concept of modesty varies a lot.

For most of us includes not showing our breasts in public. For others it's not showing their hair. For others it's only not showing their genitals. For others, even, they don't care.

It's not as simple as, in the West, uncover your head as in the West.
Some women do cover their heads in the West. For religious and non-religious reasons.
On the beach and elsewhere.

What rules do you propose?

But we are talking about clothes that people put on their bodies.

So are you ok with four year olds in niquabs then, as happens at my son's school? Or burquas in the playground? I'm not allowed to come into the playground naked or wear my Stalin is Great T shirt. (At my school you'll likely get stoned for an Israel tourist t shirt) and my son has to wear a uniform. So how far do you go? Why is it ok for a woman to wear a burqa that signifies nothing good?

I'm not sure if you have seen a burkini Teal, but no eye slits are involved.

They cover less than the wetsuits that 95% of people wear in the British sea for most of the year.

People who hang out at the beach in Northern Europe wear wetsuits in winter and rash vests in summer, so yes, religion aside, many, many people choose to cover up at the beach.

If I went to Saudi Arabia I wouldn't go out alone at night wearing a miniskirt and stilettos, even though I might want to, purely out of respect for their culture. Why can't Western culture has the same respect shown to it?

It's the upside of not living under a totalitarian regime. Nobody demands that kind of 'respect'.

So are you ok with four year olds in niquabs then, as happens at my son's school?

They get to go to your son's school where they can learn that they have a choice.

The alternative is alienation and learning that the UK isn't really their home.

I don't think young girls should be fully covered can we make laws about this but that isn't allowing parents choice

I think the niqab should be banned in public places such as government offices, school etc

it's difficult where do you draw the line because once something is banned you are taking away a choice from a women to dress how she wants

At my school you'll likely get stoned for an Israel tourist t shirt

Which would be against the law.

You think school is going to have as big an impact on them than the fear of religion

Girls as young as four covered it is a disgrace that it is allowed those girls have very little chance to discover themselves

Well put, merrymouse - and in response to Enthusiasm's point about how far do we go with religious freedom, this is exactly why I believe in the importance of national law; it's not perfect, but in many ways - at least where it's been framed democratically - it's the best protection we have

So for example FGM would be a definite no, coercion/violence to impose dress or behaviour is no again (though free choice would be a yes), circumcision without proper consent = no, freedom of expression within allowed parameters is a yes and so on ... and of course if anyone feels the law's wrong they're entirely free to campaign for change, just as we've seen in France recently

As I said it might not be ideal, but it's a hell of an improvement on some of the alternatives

And how free is a girl of four from influence of wanting to dress modestly

I would definitely campaign against small girls being made to wear niqabs, that is a form of child abuse, IMHO. I'm surprised that any UK school would allow it.

How did we get from adult women on the beach to young girls at school?

It looks like some people just need to be right in something.

Concerning tiny children being made to cover - yes, personally I'd outlaw this. I appreciate some won't agree and realize it would remove parental choice, but in that particular case I feel other issues around a child's interests are more important

At my school you'll likely get stoned for an Israel tourist t shirt

Marmite please tell me you don't really mean that ... please??

think school is going to have as big an impact on them than the fear of religion

Yes.

Certainly more effect than banning religion. Historically religion tends to do very well when religious people feel persecuted.

So are you ok with four year olds in niquabs then, as happens at my son's school? Or burquas in the playground? I'm not allowed to come into the playground naked or wear my Stalin is Great T shirt. (At my school you'll likely get stoned for an Israel tourist t shirt) and my son has to wear a uniform. So how far do you go? Why is it ok for a woman to wear a burqa that signifies nothing good?

schools are very different places. in fact, it's so acceptable to tell children what to wear to school we do it daily. I have never seen a niqab in school and my local schools have plenty of muslims. But if you want to wear a Stalin is Great/Israel is great shirt, go right ahead. My guess is that no one will, or even can, stop you.

I in fact object to the niqab in public in general. That is asking for a high degree of exceptionalism. NO ONE else is allowed to cover their face, and I think there are compelling security reasons not to allow exceptions for this.

But, this doesn't counter anything I said, as children are not part of your body. I'd say we should allow children to wear a hijab, but not the burqa (if you are wondering wear I would draw the line). I'd say there is a good case that a child's education (social and academic) may be harmed with a niqab, but not a hijab (I do see many hijabs at local schools, and people seem to get along fine).

But, the french ban is a blanket one, and none of these arguments apply to sikh and jewish boys, who must abide by the school ban. Why are they having their rights restricted?

I would definitely campaign against small girls being made to wear niqabs, that is a form of child abuse, IMHO. I'm surprised that any UK school would allow it.

They do, and I'm equally surprised that this is a surprise to anyone. Go to any school in N London with a large Muslim community and you'll see Reception and even Nursery kids wearing them.
*
They get to go to your son's school where they can learn that they have a choice.*

No they don't. They learn that it's the norm and that the school will willingly reinforce conservative dress they are forced to wear at home.

Baning young girls from having to dress 'modestly' is far from banning religion

It is stopping a religious practice that informs girls and women they need to be modest to protect themselves ffs we live in a progressive society girls and women do not need to protect themselves and be modest

so let's ignore extreme Islam people won't feel persecuted and then all those school girls having been told for years by Imams and family they need to be modest will suddenly realise that there is no need

so conditioning of religion and the fear of religion and and having no honour these girls will magically break free from