Burkini banned in France

[LifeIsGoodish]

Instead of teaching people to behave with respect to each other.

Burkini banned in France

The French (and I think some other countries) definitely enforce Speedos at the pool. Apparently this is to stop people wearing outerwear in the pool because it could be dusty or sandy.

I have never heard of this being enforced in the sea. After all, there is already quite a bit of sand in the sea.

There seems to be some confusion about what secularism in public places is.
Certainly, covering the face is not allowed, and it's clear what the security benefits are.
Then, religious symbols are not allowed in public institutions, at least for workers. Children attending school are also not allowed.
So far so good.

This new ban on the beach is not the same and the High Court has agreed that it's not lawful, no matter how non experts interpret the law.

There seems to be some confusion about what secularism in public places is.

secularism isn't just one thing. it is practised differently in different places. For example, Canada and the US are both secular, and neither enforce such laws.

The current french interpretation of secularism seems to be entirely at odds with their motto 'Liberté, égalité, fraternité'. My understanding of secularism is that it's about the state staying out of religion and religion staying out of the state. This should result in no religious privilege and no religious discrimination - the sort of thing the founding fathers of the US were aiming at, and absolutely not anti-religious.

The idea that you have to dress differently on a beach for reasons of hygiene is ludicrous. Seawater is full of fish, crustacea, seaweed etc - all manner of biological substances, oil residues from boats etc etc. My family will swim in wetsuits if the water is cold or rash vests/boardies if its warm for sun protection. Do the French object to kids in full-length sun-suits? Would they object to an adult with sensitive skin (or who just didn't like sunblock) wearing one?

There might be a hygiene argument to say you should change out of clothes you've swum in before leaving the beach, but that's not what they're doing.

Comment from a friend, which made me stop and think: "How come a news photographer just happened to be present?"

Granted they might have been there for something else, but a French beach in the summer is a busy place - so what were the chances of them being around at that precise time?

The current french interpretation of secularism

Except that the High Court disagrees with how it's being implemented in this case.
As such, we can debate whatever we want and have our own opinions. This ban is illegal, at least based on the justifications given by the Mayors.

As for being a set up or not, the police were real. This is happening. It's not a made up ban and enforcement.

I feel a point that is overlooked in the pictures is that there are armed police with guns patrolling the beaches in southern France

Of course the women in question should not have ordered to undress.

But the story also showed how terrible things are in France but that got lost in what was happening to this woman

The thought of having to have armed police at beaches is awful but that is what happens when you are under threat as France are from terrorism

so what were the chances of them being around at that precise time?

Very, very high. There are probably still many journalists and photographers on beaches in France trying to capture pictures of women in burkinis and armed police men.

It was a picture that was clearly going to appear at some point, and the various councils responsible for the restriction must have known this.

'standing up to Muslims' may play well locally and certainly seems to meet the approval of many British people.

However, on a larger more long term scale, it's very debatable whether it's a good idea to have pictures all over the Internet of mothers with their children being forced to leave the beach or remove clothing.

I know the police would have been at the beach and carried guns with or without a burkini ban, but how much better to have shown them protecting everyone, as they attempted to protect the Muslims who died in Nice?

The thought of having to have armed police at beaches is awful but that is what happens when you are under threat as France are from terrorism

and wouldn't it be better if they were actually looking for and defending against terrorists rather than hassling women and ordering them to strip? it's clear the point has zero to do with security and everything to do with xenophobic politics.

Of course

The point being things are so bad in France that armed police are patrolling beaches has got lost in the burkini argument and that is the very real and very serious threat of attack on innocent people enjoying themselves

Well said, Enthusiasm

As I've mentioned before I'm not entirely comfortable with the ban myself; in normal times I'd be completely against it, even though I see the burkini as a symbol of oppression and wilful separation

Unfortunately, these are not normal times

And before anyone points out yes she is innocent

Thank you puzzle

I think the French have over reached on this issues however we all know what the French are like

Secular and antie anything French so I have to say I know I will be flamed any one who wants to express themslefs reliously should re think if France is for them even if born there

My own personal view is often religion I used to get out of doing things one dosent want to do or being akward like when people sight health and safety when they can't be arsed to do somthing or want to frustrate you

As I've mentioned before I'm not entirely comfortable with the ban myself; in normal times I'd be completely against it, even though I see the burkini as a symbol of oppression and wilful separation

but that's the cost of living in a free society. we all have to witness things we disagree with.

I think the issue is we're not in a free society and this dress as you like seems to work one way

Naked rambler anyone

and I think we all realise just because you can dress as you like dosent mean you should

And people who do are often attention seekers or trying to make a political point nither witch are desirable tbh

I can dress in a biki tob and bottoms to my child's parents evening however I would be stared at , would make eveyone feel uneasy and most likey ask to cover up or leave I would not Imaign people championing my right to dress how I please

France is hostile to being of devout faith and is Iran to being of no faith so the question is fight the good fight or move somewhere and juts get on

If you want to live a very western life then the Middle East is not for you even if born there and if you want to live a chaste devout life then France is definitely not the country France has not just be come like this it was ever thus

If you want to live a very western life then the Middle East is not for you even if born there and if you want to live a chaste devout life then France is definitely not the country France has not just be come like this it was ever thus

but, unlike Iran, france advertises itself as a free country.

but that's the cost of living in a free society. we all have to witness things we disagree with.

Would that extend to images of the Prophet Mohammed? If so why wouldn't any media outlet in the uk issue the Charlie Hebdo cartoons? And where was the equivalent Je Suis Charlie movement in the uk after Jan 2015? Fucking nowhere, just weasel words and equally weasely apologism aside from some honourable exceptions. Where were the Muslim leaders so keen to express outrage at the Burkini Ban then? Again, nowhere.

If you want to have freedom of dress and expression then that has to extend to all and not be curtailed by sensitivities, whether circumscribed by the state or by a religion or a designated culture.

if you want to live a chaste devout life then France is definitely not the country

What on earth does this even mean?

You're not allowed to be a virgin and pray in France? (for example)

No nuns? No priests?

but, unlike Iran, france advertises itself as a free country.

It is a free country. A badly constructed law, albeit one applied locally and for a fixed term, has been overturned by due process. Isn't that the way things should work in a free country?

If you want to live a very western life then the Middle East is not for you even if born there and if you want to live a chaste devout life then France is definitely not the country France has not just be come like this it was ever thus

Gosh, it sounds so easy to immigrate in your world.
Wouldn't it just be easier if we accept that people have certain rights?

that's the cost of living in a free society. we all have to witness things we disagree with

My fault for not being clearer, Chilli - it's the ban I was against rather than the burkinis, even though I dislike them for the reasons I said. FWIW, on balance I'm still against the ban, though in all honesty there's a part of me that can see why the French chose to do it

In many ways pleasemother put it best ... something might be a right, but that doesn't necessarily make it wise or desirable

Well put Puzzled. Perfect summation of my position too.

It is a free country. A badly constructed law, albeit one applied locally and for a fixed term, has been overturned by due process. Isn't that the way things should work in a free country?

it's not only this law, it's the law concerning religious dress in schools.

Not as free as many would like.

We conceded that we should conform to societal norms

We were black at funerals in the uk

We don't were white to weddings

We don't go nude at public swimming pools unless asked other wise

In frace they don't cover there heads or faces and don't like religious dress

And tbh if 100 people are wearing jeans and a t shirt and your wearing a face covering all in balck then I suggest that outfit is nit about being demour or not being noticed it's the opposite its standing out and wanting people to notice you its for attention

You can cover with out standing out so it clearly political often I seen women often middle eastern or your Somali girls and tbh there covered but have more makeup and higher heels than rupaul

Personally o cover on the beach you won't see anything bar my feet and arms but I not dressed head to toe in balck

You cover with out drawing attention so my guess is often this is about drawing attention