Germany :(

[nuttymango]

And now Germany - an axeman has attacked people on a train.
BBC breaking news - www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36827725

Okay. So this is my understanding. Which could be wrong but...

Muslim may claim to be a peaceful religion but surely if you are offering heaven and 70 virgins to any muslim who kill the infidels.. Well you're lying about the peace aspect. But also giving people who have lapsed in their religion an easy out. The guy in Nice will now go to heaven, apparently, even though he is a mass murder. Well he may not have been a 'real' muslim before but he has killed infidels now. He is a muslim hero as far as the religion goes, not necessarily the people, and the religion is what matters. The god. Not the people.

By the way I am realise that the vast majority of muslims want peace. However the religion they follow does not promote peace and acceptance. It promotes Islam and hate for all others who do not follow Islam. Any acceptance of others is in fact contrary to the religious teaching of Islam. From what I understand the Koran cannot be interpreted like the bible. It cannot be modernised to be brought in line with society. Therefore Islam cannot be anything other than what is written in that book. And the book is not about tolerance and peace unless the whole world has converted to Islam or have been killed.

So I do think that these horrendous acts are in fact perpetrated by followers of Islam (born and converted alike). Young people who see no future in the world they are being offered or at least not a future that aligns with their belief system (which their parents have shoved down their throats (indoctrinate them into) from a very early age), who are confused with the rule in a book (a very old book) and the realities of what the modern world expect and offers from them. Two polar opposite realties which are simply impossible to reconcile.
Hence why it is often local muslims causing the atrocities, not immigrants, as their values do not align to the place of birth.

I believe that the millions of muslims who try to defend Islam are in fact not truly following their religion. (Thank fuck for that) However I do not think they are helping by denying that the cause of this, 'the fundamentalist' are in fact following the true religion as it is in the book.

Please correct me if any of this is factually incorrect.

I don't think you are "bullying" Emily, sporting.. I think it is all some sort of diversion, straw man tactic to intimidate people from talking about Islamic Extremist.

It just seems to me that you are seeing some very dark motives for others questioning what are dark behaviours (killings) of others. Most of us are questioning what is the pull within Islam that makes it prone to twisting and radicalism and makes it appeal on a worldwide scale to people from different countries and backgrounds.

I have no problem in you not responding to me, I am perfectly happy to carry on the discussion with others. I will therefore respect your wishes and not respond to you also. I hope you enjoy the rest of your day and the weather is as nice with you as it is here.

Very interesting article here about the pull of Jihad and what may be going on:

www.spiked-online.com/spiked-review/article/generation-jihadi-olivier-roy-isis-daesh/18504?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=spiked%20review%20July%2017&utm_content=spiked%20review%20July%2017+CID_31fd0c88fe4390a40641696c52dc6e67&utm_source=Email%20marketing%20software&utm_term=Generation%20jihadi#.V499_Y5VoQ9

Elly, I am commenting in context of their past behaviour toward me on here which has been unpleasant. The fact that they accuse me of name calling after referring to me as a dick says it all.

Noone has been intimidated or shut down on this thread by me.

We have a saying in our family- "Explanation and excuse are not the same thing'

^^ On this thread there was an out pouring of sympathy for the attacker more so than for the victims I am not the only one who has noticed it.

And there are plenty of people brought up in tough circumstances, with a dodgy religious understanding

^^ how dodgy is it? There is plenty of evidence that ISIS are following the prophets life to a T with no dodgy understanding but THE understanding

That was a very interesting article, sporting. Sadly there are hundreds of young would-be jihadis in this country and I really don't understand why the government goes to such lengths to stop them from going to Syria to join Daesh. That is what they want, that will make them happy and they won't be committing atrocities here. I would let them go provided they renounced their British citizenship and surrendered their British passports as they left the UK.

Most people in the UK I truly believe do not get thrilled or excited by watching videos of people being horribly murdered in a gruesome manner but obviously some people do and I think they would be happier in a society where these acts are the norm. It is naïve beyond belief to think that Western intervention in many Middle East countries will by some miracle get these fanatics to suddenly change their thinking and conform to our idea of civilized behaviour.

'On this thread there was an out pouring of sympathy for the attacker more so than for the victims I am not the only one who has noticed it.'

Yes I was very surprised about that yesterday. Very odd. I also think it was in in poor taste to do this just a few hours after the attack when victims were still bleeding from their gash wounds - four of who were in a critical condition.

This guy was a radicalised Muslim was he then ...right. No sympathy from me.

I have just looked at the latest reports from the BBC, they think he was actually from Pakistan, but that its common to claim to be from Afghanistan to get into Europe. (sorry I can't link)

It appears to be a complicated story.

The article is interesting Cleo as it appears to answer some of the questions of why it appeals so much to younger people and also it may answer why the older generation are at a loss with this, after all if your son/daughter shouts "you are not a good muslim" at you where do you go from there?

AllThe, I don't specifically mean Muslims, I mean, well tbh anyone with an overly religious upbringing. As mentioned by someone else upthread, even 'nice' religions imply that you are better than others. Some will obviously have worse effects than the 'nice' ones, but I wasn't singling out the beliefs of IS as dodgy - as you say, they are actually accurate.

And I still don't think there has been an "outpouring of sympathy for the attacker" What I see is people who are considering why he would do it, which is surely a natural thing to wonder, who have been told quite a few times that this constitutes "an outpouring of sympathy" and are simply arguing that it is not.

Has there been any news on how the victims are?

2 are still in intensive care

I think people are trying to backtrack now and say they were seeking to understand the motivation of the attacker and what brought him to that place, when in actually it was clear a few posts in that some posters were viewing the axeman as as much a victim and therefore worthy of sympathy as those he harmed.

Now that, in my opinion, is not only unsavoury but utterly misguided. And, as others have pointed out, the same understanding was not extended to Jo Cox's murderer or general dv perpetrators. Surely everyone has a back story and a raft of excuses?

So I can only come to the conclusion that some posters' opinions are only of one shade and they do commit "virtue signalling" when it suits them.

"I can only come to the conclusion that some posters' opinions are only of one shade and they do commit "virtue signalling" when it suits them."

You go right ahead. Conclude what you like. Don't let the evidence stand in your way. As I said, this thread has shown me exactly what sort of people use the expression "virtue signaling"

Sporting for the record, I have always found your posts respectful, informed and thoughtful.

I think there's a reason that posting about other threads is not allowed, Emily, I'm sure MN would be happy to share their policy; I think raking over perceived personal posts on other threads is against the spirit of a new thread as well as bring entirely beside the point.

Hope all enjoying this beautiful rare sunshine too!

*being.

Heat!

It wasn't beside the point, mooing. I disagreed with a point made by Sporting, which was her description of her posting style.

I agree it isn't good to rake over old threads but I will not be told by someone that has bullied me on a number of occasions that they are always 'considerate' and polite, particularly when the bullying persists on this thread with them calling me a 'dick' and alluding that I mentally unwell. Again.

To be honest it was the use of the term I found dickish, not the person as a whole

Worthy of sympathy =/= an "outpouring" of sympathy

I have made clear I feel sympathy for jo cox's killer and 'white peodophiles' as someone directly asked. I also said above that half of children in care end up in the criminal justice system. They are hurt from the start, cause harm and then are punished by society further. I feel terribly sorry for them and truly believe that those who harm need help. This does not take away from the fact that their victims need help.
In terms of mental health or illness- some internalise disturbance and some externalise so some self harm and a small proportion harm others. Those who internalise may be lucky enough to receive help, those who externalise are more likely to end up in prison. Both groups may need containment and at times may need to have others take care of them whether for their own safety or the safety of others (and most can get help without hospitalisation or prison) but I feel sympathy for all of them and think we need much better treatment for all.

That's lovely twisted, maybe you should start a thread about it. Pretty sure this thread was started to express horror at yet another violent attack by an Islamic extremist. Expressing sympathy for the victims attempted murderer on this thread is in very poor taste.