Germany :(

[nuttymango]

And now Germany - an axeman has attacked people on a train.
BBC breaking news - www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36827725

Interesting post Joana. I think you have some good points.

"I find your smearing of MH sufferers offensive, disablist and frankly apologetic for the real issue at hand. It is disablist to smear MH people for being the root of all evil"

It would be.But nobody is doing that. I think you should go back and read the thread properly. And report any disablist posts you find.

Of course it's not the root of all evil. What ridiculousness.

Anyway, I await deletion.

Why aren't we allowed to feel sorry for people caught up on the other side of this bullshit? What on earth is wrong with people that they don't?

Why on earth would someone who is fanatical about an ideology require your sorrow or pity?

That sounds culturally imperious.

I posted recently about the school I attended in KSA, a Muslim school in Riyadh. Chapter 3 of our reading book was called 'Palestine' and called for Jews to be shot.

That's the equivalent of 'spot the dog' just so you understand how ingrained such hatred is.

You sound dangerously naive. If you'd ever lived under a theocracy you would understand the depth and level of fanaticism some people have. It is virtually unknown in mainstream Western life.

I guess an equivalent would be, we all learn to sing the national anthem in the UK. So if a 25-year old skinhead National Front Nazi sympathiser kicks in the head of an immigrant, would your immediate thought be 'oh, I feel so very very very sorry for him, being caught up in this bullshit. He must have terrrible issues and been so very traumatised and all of us just try to understand him. He's only 12 after all'

Because I've never, ever seen anyone say that.

The hypocrisy and frankly racist lofty pronunciations and virtue signalling (which it is, otherwise this sort of 'sorrow' would be applied to anyone, regardless of colour, beliefs or culture) is abhorrent and disingenuous.

I think what the issue is, is that there is some implication that mental health issues are behind this and this amy not be the case in the majority of attacks, for example there was never any evidence that the Brussels attackers or any of those in Paris had any of those issues or indeed those on 9/11, 7/7 etc. They had motivations and they knew exactly what they were doing and indeed planned it meticulously, this attacker may have been the same, in fact that he left a video suggests he was rather calm and calculating about it.

Many people with mental health issues and trauma in their past turn out to be productive and caring citizens. I don't think they would like people to think they are going to be a danger to anyone.

I think there should just be an acknowledgment of the fact that we know very little about this man and that we are indeed speculating about his motivations. Indeed we cannot know the full picture of what was happening in his head because he is now dead and we cannot ask him. We do not know the state of his mental health one way or another, he may have been in reasonably good health mentally, we don't know.

Oh well. This thread has taught me one new thing. Use of the term "virtue signaling" is a sure fire indication of the presence of a dick.

It is disablist to smear MH people for being the root of all evil. - I have asked for these kind of posts to be pointed out in order to support your argument, you will not because you can not as they simply do not exist. NO ONE has said people with MH problems are the root of all evil on this thread. I get really annoyed with people like you, on almost every good discussion thread someone comes along and tries to shut it down by taking offense at things that haven't even been said. Fucking ridiculous.

Oh well. This thread has taught me one new thing. Use of the term "virtue signaling" is a sure fire indication of the presence of a dick.

mumsnet has been like this for quite some time sadly. A lot of BNP Ste posts around.

^^ I cant help but find this comment ironic.

Your defending an axe wielder who has physically and brutally attacked innocent people on a train, people who may have had worse lives than him ( if indeed he did have an awful life we do not know this). But your the good guy in this?

NO ONE has said people with MH problems are the root of all evil on this thread

No I dont think thats a fair comment at all.

There is a blind leap into "mental health " problems the moment someone commits such an atrocity, of course its putting ALL MH in a bad light.

Although of course the man who did have documented long term MH issues, the man who killed Jo cox the same posters were defending his sanity to the death.

Which is why I don't trust certain posters POV at all, they don't look at each situation objectively to see the truth. The are entrenched.

Your defending an axe wielder - Where are the comments 'defending' him?

"Your defending an axe wielder "
Again. Who has "defended" him?

We have a saying in our family- "Explanation and excuse are not the same thing'

The mud slinging, and use of accusations of people being linked to the BNP if they express an opinion which differs indicates to me someone who is not prepared to be courteous and debate points in a calm manner. They also come across as something of a d**k too.

Some people really need to work on their reading comprehension.

I have said mh issues may play a part of very complex reasoning why someone may do something like this. I have long term mh issues myself, why would I want to put the blame solely on mh?!

And there are plenty of people brought up in tough circumstances, with a dodgy religious understanding, who have mh issues, who don't go on to commit such atrocities. Hence it is complicated, which is what most people here those who aren't solely blaming Islam here are saying

It is speculation though, we have no proof. All we know is that he did a video for ISIS and had paraphenalia of them at home. He has been radicalised that much is clear, whether it was due to background or other reasons is supposition.

Perhaps we should start a new thread to discuss the overarching issues for all the attacks that have happened in recent times and the possible motivations and peoples feelings on how it is being tackled and should be tackled?

On this thread maybe we should just express sympathy for the victims and their families and hope that they recover.

Allthe, that post was about generalisations being made BNP style. Noone thinks the killer was 'a good guy.'

Sporting, I don't think you can tell people what they 'should' be posting. It's inevitable that reasons for why he did it will be discussed.

Fluffle, the reason I mentioned the age of three is because it is very well documented that children who have been abused and brutalised from an early age are unlikely to fully recover from it. I am not talking just about the children in the Middle East; I am also talking about children abused in the UK who when they are finally removed from their brutal parents are scarred for life, mentally, physically or both.

In Syria and other countries, toddlers are taken to watch beheadings, people being burned alive, people thrown off tall buildings. If a three-year-old saw something like that in the UK they would traumatised and they would be given counselling, play therapy, etc., to help them understand that this was not normal. For children in many places in the Middle East it is normal. Their parents tell them this is normal. They grow up thinking this is what you do. We take our children to theme parks. Their parents take them to see someone executed.

Their parents tell them that girls and women must to covered at all times, and that women are far inferior to men. They cannot cope in a society where women are equal and wear what they like. They think that women in skimpy clothes are whores.

That is why it is impossible for many of these people to settle peacefully in Europe. Their mindset is totally different and it is not going to change.

It was just a suggestion Emily as it may give people the space and framework to have a more targeted discussion.

Why did you need to mention the BNP? You could just say that you think people are generalising, it wasn't really hugely relevant and didn't actually come across as meaning that very well. In fact it came across as name calling which I'm sure you didn't mean it as.

There are a lot of BNP style posts on Mumsnet at the moment and have been for some time sporting. I think it's important to call this kind of prejudice and hatred what is. No, I wouldn't call it 'generalising', because that gives the impression it's a lot more gentle and harmless than it is. I think it is more serious and more dangerous than that.

I don' t think you need to advise me or other people what they should be saying.

Linking people with an organised political party when they may not be is unconstructive and just comes across as name calling. You can convey it without using that, for example you've said serious and dangerous, you could have added those words to generalisation. You could have also said that you felt it picked up on right wing sentiment or that you felt it played into the hands of right wing parties. As it is I've seen nobody really saying that ALL Msulims across the entire world are to blame. There are issues within the religion to do with conservatism and radicalistation of people from across the world and social spectrum. We do need to look carefully at those and work out a way to tackle these with all sides coming together to do that.

I liked Mistress Mia's post a while back, the attacker did what he did because he had been convinced beyond doubt that what he did was the right course of action.

Please don't get agressive, I just questioned it and the way you came across as you are free to do so with me.

I do think the thread has become about more issues than the OP as well which has not necessarily ended in the spirit in which it was started.

It was a comment obviously referring to the umpteen abhorrent comments on various threads 'foreigners' quite some time's on Mumsnet and a comment on how unpleasant the climate here has become. Name calling is targeted at individuals. I didn't say anything aggressive, it's curious that you feel I did and that you seem so personally wounded by my pointing out that there are some very dark posts on this site.

I know exactly how you come across.

My phone autocorrected that. I meant to say, sporting, that the 'BNP' like comment referred to the umpteen abhorrent posts on a number of threads for quite some time.

BNP, hilarious. You're assuming people on this thread are all British, when we aren't. Or have you worn out "Daily Mail"?

I do think if you are looking for something in almost any sphere you will often find it.

I avoid name calling I try to always be polite and considerate, if you do not see that Emily I think you may be in a very dark place. I think you are a decent person and obviously try your best to be caring about others. I do too, but I can also see that there is darkness in the world and it does not divide by creed, colour or sex. Horrible things are done by human beings all the time and killing is killing whoever does it and regardless of their motivations.

You do come across as a bit agressive in your last sentence by the way!

Good point shins. And I'm not sure the BNP exist any more or not in the form they once did.