Germany :(

[nuttymango]

And now Germany - an axeman has attacked people on a train.
BBC breaking news - www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36827725

Details are only really emerging as we go along about the possible motivations, and some of it since the young man in question is now dead we will never really know, just as in the case of the Nice killer we will never really know as no one knows the private thoughts of another.

All we know is radicalisation is a factor. One wonders about those behind these people, the shadowy figures that carry out the radicalisation, those that target these people. They most assuredly are not mentally ill, they are calculating, driven and without feeling. Who are they? Where are they? And how are they finding these people? What are they telling them to convince them so completely that to do this is right? Those are questions we should be asking.

Those are good questions sporting.

Twisted. I agree that many of the children who end up in care and then the criminal justice system have "hurt from the start" as you say, BUT on the other hand you have people saying how barbaric it is if babies are removed at birth from criminal, feckless, violent, druggie or alcoholic parents.

If a child is abused in the first years of his or her life they may well never recover. Yes, I have immense sympathy for these poor children who have been let down by their dreadful parents, but what do you think is the answer? Let the parents have a go at parenting even if the children could be at risk and are likely to suffer mentally, physically or both? Or remove babies at birth and place with adoptive parents?

Should children of known terrorist sympathisers also be removed from their families as soon as terrorist links are discovered?

Children in both of those situations could end up in the criminal justice system. When would you intervene?

Intervention comes in many different forms and needs to be there throughout the cycle. What happens even in pregnancy can impact on later mental health. It does not have to mean removing children but of course it can. I think if we can shift from blame to empathy and a wish to understand then people are less likely to become quite so isolated (and potentially dangerous). There are good treatment programs out there for people who cause harm (including parents who do and children who do) but they are woefully underfunded and are being cut. By the way early trauma does not in any way mean that these children can't be helped. It can impact on the brain definitely but there can also be repair.

This thread is in "in the news". It is for discussing a news event, not a circle jerk of who can express the most sympathy towards the victims

I read an article in which It was said that German services that dealt with refugees are struggling as there are not the levels of specialists in certain areas that are necessary to provide the right interventions, and it takes time to train more of course. So the correct interventions that Twisted is referring to may bein danger of not happening. Did that happen in this case? Will we know?

It should express a balance towards both sides.

It should, sporting. Perhaps those trying to ban the discussion of the man as it is 'tasteless' should take note.

Twisted I am afraid that if a child is left with feckless, violent, criminal, etc., parents even for the first months of their lives there may well never be a "repair". There are thousands of unadoptable children out there because there was no intervention until after it was too late. They are too damaged. They are three years old and if they are incredibly lucky they will get amazing adoptive parents who will see them through years of treatments even though they may never recover fully from what happened to them. Most of those children won't get those lovely adoptive parents but will be shuffled between foster homes and care homes until they reach their teens.

Young children who are brought up by terrorist sympathisers will see terrorism as the norm by the time they are two or three. The Afghan man - he looks older than a "boy" - thought it was acceptable to attack innocent people on a train. The man who mowed down the people in Nice and the men who murdered all the Paris victims, and all the Brussels victims, also thought it was acceptable to do this.

All my sympathy is with their victims, and the families of their victims.

There is no way that enough specialists/therapists can ever be trained to deal with the number of people arriving from the Middle East and Africa who would require the intervention you envisage.

There are also thousands who also live in the UK and Europe who are never going to get that intervention either.

I've read that those who were allowed to return here and allowed to roam our streets after fighting for ISIS in Syria think that the anti-radicalisation courses they are sent on here are a joke. Those courses don't change their thinking a jot and they think we are stupid if we believe they do.

Remember that son of the Labour councillor who was stopped leaving Turkey for Syria to join ISIS with his family? He was grinning all over his face when he was brought back. Nothing happened to him because nothing ever does.

Our security services have stopped a number of terrorist plots, thank God, but as the IRA used to say in the 70s/80s, they only have to get lucky once.

i seriously think ISIS are cts as much as the next man but i wish the new wave of racist posters would f off from MN and take their bile elsewhere.

not referring to anyone in particular as i have only skimmed the thread and seen its full of the usual "they" do this stuff and people even calling muslims "barbarians".

WTF

seriously pardon my swearing but its so depressing reading the endless right wing bigotry.

People trying to discuss a solution to this world problem are abused as well and called "too PC".

Too right fanjo. It is exhausting.

There is no way that enough specialists/therapists can ever be trained to deal with the number of people arriving from the Middle East and Africa who would require the intervention you envisage

Probably not, realistically no. So I guess the peoples of Europe are seen as collateral damage.

And what if the people you so sensitively describe as in poor mental health and in need of trauma counselling are, in their own opinion, perfectly sane?

What if their actions are more a result of their firmly-held beliefs, resulting in an action for which they will be lauded on earth and rewarded in heaven?

What if they genuinely believe that they are merely fulfilling the will of their God?

What gives you the right to make a fundamental value judgement and insist their beliefs and actions are those of a radicalised, mentally deranged person rather than a good, religious soul doing as he was taught?

Does that make you patronising? Culturally superior? Ignorant? Bigoted because you hold someone against your own cultural standards and find them wanting so make excuses?

Certainly the majority of moderate Muslims I know would be uncomfortable and find it odd that you feel it your place to pass such judgement.

They less moderate? Well, I know at least one who's laughing at your posts.

Just to be clear. I think (know) there are people who cause harm from all walks of life and and this (obviously I would hope)is not just about muslims. There is not enough funding for mental health full stop. And tragically this will cause damage.

I do not believe this is a MH issue even for a minute. These are peole who are following their religion. The extremists are the true followers of Islam. They are following the teachings of the Koran and not deviating. The more moderate muslims, who are not following the religion as written are the ones that are not truly practicing muslims.

Therefore is Islam not the issue?

The naivety is stunning. Most people I know who come out with this patronising nonsense have no knowledge of religiosity; no experience of growing up in a society where religion is in constant conflict with women's rights, free speech, the rule of law. You just don't get it. You have no idea what you're dealing with.

Spot on Shins.

I think people are trying to backtrack now and say they were seeking to understand the motivation of the attacker and what brought him to that place, when in actually it was clear a few posts in that some posters were viewing the axeman as as much a victim and therefore worthy of sympathy as those he harmed.

Now that, in my opinion, is not only unsavoury but utterly misguided. And, as others have pointed out, the same understanding was not extended to Jo Cox's murderer or general dv perpetrators. Surely everyone has a back story and a raft of excuses?

^^ YY Rhoda.

I'm not backtracking. I still think the attacker was a victim too and must have been very damaged by his experiences.

I think this will traumatise his victims for the rest of their lives too.

Allthemadman. I am not backtracking. I do have sympathy with the attacker (and of course the victims) and I have sympathy with Jo Cox's killer. I am also seeking to understand. I am not remotely ashamed to say any of this. If the victims of this attack become paranoid and disturbed and devastatingly attack others, I will feel no less sympathy for them than I do now.

I don't think they have MH issues. I think it is how they have been brought up in their societies which believe in throwing gay people off roofs, chopping off hands, beheading people, publicly hanging people and burning people to death.

They believe that this is way Allah wants them to behave.

I met a Muslim girl a few years ago who had run away from Bradford because her parents were insisting on an arranged marriage and had forbidden her to see her boyfriend because he came from an inferior caste/sect. They had run away to London and she said that if they found her they would kill her because she had brought shame upon the family. She genuinely believed this. She worked in a fairly large shopping centre and I asked if she wasn't worried that she would be recognized. She said she was actually terrified but would not spend her life in hiding. I thought she was a very brave girl.

We think they are deranged. They believe they are doing their god's work, and no amount of counselling or therapy is going to change that.

I'm trying to imagine that approach with my late grandparents who believed in the virgin birth, transubstantiation, apparitions of Our Lady, the resurrection, miracles, the afterlife and the power of prayer. "Now if we could just sign you up for 12 sessions of cognitive behavioural therapy, then you'll see reason".

They were brought up to be a bit patronising and pitying to those of a different faith rather than to hate and despise them but nothing could shake that faith of theirs, nurtured by insularity, geographical isolation and lack of education.

Twisted I doubt very much if the victims of this hideous attack are going to get weapons and start attacking other innocent victims. I can't believe you are even suggesting that.