Germany :(

[nuttymango]

And now Germany - an axeman has attacked people on a train.
BBC breaking news - www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36827725

As I mentioned there are practises in other communities which repress women also.

Police training and political will would help.

Yes there are a range of cultural backgrounds but they do share the same religion, just as a buddhist here is also part of the same religion as one in Thailand, but culturally and background wise their lives will be different due to geographical factors.

Of course training police is key, of course it is!

1. Cultural and gender (non-)diversity in the Police

Despite some recent interventions, the UK police force as a whole is far from diverse. Accepting always the risk of a degree of harsh, unfair-to-some stereotyping, it can be said that the large majority of British police officers are white males with limited insight into / knowledge of the wider world beyond their own experience. Officers with non-diverse backgrounds will find it very difficult to engender trust or to ‘read’ the implications of activities in minority cultural communities; important indicators of the need for intervention will be missed. Overall, this does not equip the police service well when trying to expose and deal with poorly understood and usually covert crimes against individuals who cannot speak out about what is happening.

The Police are insufficiently diverse in respect to ethnicity, gender and cultural background. This has very wide implications (including the charge of institutional racism[17]) and is particularly important in issues around the protection of vulnerable members of the community.

Further, the nature of FGM is in any case particularly sensitive. It is an intimate, gendered crime which often hinges on nuances of conduct, language and perception which make communication with the (potential) victim difficult – if the victim is willing to engage at all, which she may well not be, especially in the presence of men not from her community. Making matters even more complex, if there is the prospect of a discussion between a victim and a police or other legal officer via an interpreter or with a ‘friend’ or chaperone in attendance, that third party must be someone independent who will not influence or be influenced by the victim’s family or other community members.

It is too late, if independent (and trained) third parties for interpretation / chaperoning whilst victims are in the care of the Police have not been identified before the need for them arise



The likely outcomes of police involvement in FGM cases (prevention of, and / or protection from further harm) are not widely understood by either victims or family and community members. There needs to be clarity about the role of the police in ensuring that the safety of the child is the first priority.
It is also essential that all professionals who become involved – midwives, teachers, police etc – understand that reporting concerns to the authorities is a direct responsibility; what happens legally thereafter is not. This is critical because it removes the fear, often cited by all sides (family members to eg midwives) that reporting FGM, or the risk of it, will necessarily result in ‘breaking up the family’.

hilaryburrage.com/2016/06/08/policing-issues-in-regard-to-female-genital-mutilation-in-the-uk/

A previous post mentions of empowered Muslim some "wearing the trousers" and being empowered.
If some of these women were well known in some way - our young women may be inspired by them. I actually can't think of any.
We tend to see the Muslim way of life being led (and dictated by men). I would like to say I have seen an alternative to this, but despite living in a large city (with a large Muslim population) I have not seen this.
I don't see it in general society either.
It's difficult for western society to deal with this. We are still struggling to reach real equality for our daughters in the workplace - but we are now living in a society where some sections are setting us decades back.
It is not going to work is it? If it will work, how?
I won't accept anything but equality for women and I'm not willing to compromise.
If I am accused of racism with this view - I don't accept that criticism either.

I also don't understand - how police involvement in female genital mutilation cases may not be understood by anybody living in the UK?
I can't think of anything worse that can be done to a child. It is abuse of the worst kind and the perpetrators of this must be prosecuted.

Pickled - so you are telling me you see no Muslim women in the world of work, or active in wider society?

I live in a city with a large Muslim population and work in the NHS. I see Muslim women at every level in the workplace, living their lives.

This week I attended a university graduation ceremony. At least a third of the graduates were from Muslim backgrounds of diverse ethnicities with males and females equally represented.

If I am seeing this, why aren't you? Did you know there are eight MPs who are Muslim women? Do you know there are Muslim women in the House of Lords?

However your remarks about "it's not going to work is it?" are puzzling. What exactly do you want to happen?

Bearing in mind Muslims are at most, 5% of the U.K. population, do you really think we're such a threat to equality in the workplace?

I do work in the public sector in a large city - I know of many Muslim male employees but I can't think of one female one.
I live in a city where I see Muslim women walking behind men rather than alongside them.
I can only speak of what I see and experience. Of the female MPs I hope they are using their role to empower women. If they are and able to influence their communities that's obviously a good thing. - I just don't see it happening in mine.

What I would like to see happen is integration.
Women treated equally - no cases of segregation of sexes.
No fear of prosecutions regarding general mutilation - anybody living here should know it's wrong.
We are progressing in animal welfare, it is now going backwards as some say it's a cultural right to cut an animals throat while fully conscious.
I don't eat meat anyway, but I know a society of vegetarians is wishful thinking on my part, I can only hope that conditions in abattoirs improve rather than worsen.

That should say we were progressing in animal welfare - that is now regressing as most places where I live, now offer halal meat.

Sorry - I forgot to add: Restaurants and cafes offering halal meat as the only non vegetarian option.
If you are ordering meat it's halal. I feel that this is a backward step in the welfare of animals.
I also find it to be a form of "forced faith" on those who are not Muslim.

The Equality and Human Rights Commission report of 2010 found that almost three-quarters of Muslim women in the UK are unemployed. How is that not connected to patriarchal attitudes? I read an interview with the lovely Nadiya who won the Great British Bake-off. Born and brought up in Luton, forbidden to go to college and an arranged marriage before she was 20. How depressing is that? Her husband seems lovely and encouraging but it shouldn't depend on his goodwill.

I know this has moved on since I last posted but from reading I think maybe there are people who don't do "levels" of sympathy. You're either sorry for someone or you're not, and if someone's done something bad then they get no sympathy/empathy/understanding. It's very black and white. And sympathy/empathy/understanding seem to equate to "letting someone off the hook" ... which is not true at all.

I feel like my posts above were pretty goddamn explicit in saying it must have been awful for the victims and how I can't even imagine the terror. Of course I'm sympathetic to them.

But I point-blank refuse to just not feel anything for the person (and people) who end up committing atrocities like this. I wouldn't want their lives for anything and I hate that they've been born into a system where that's turned into their one and only life.

It's not "naive" at all to feel sad about the world we're in and the people who are caught up in all this bullshit on either side FGS. (Again - that's not the same as saying "poor snookumsy killer" or something )

I'll probably leave it at that, as don't think I can keep posting the same thing over and over as it's not helpful in a conversation (plus I'm not always on MN so miss responses etc).

fluffle- it is helpful to have it said again. Because it makes me feel less depressed!

I read this recently but cant find it at the moment

older piece though:

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/967153.stm
Asian women are three times more likely to commit suicide than the rest of the population.

She said the reasons for the high suicide rates were complex.

"There are likely to be a number of reasons and these are likely to be related to the social realities of women of Indian origin living in the UK.

"Factors could include difficulties in family relations, social isolation or racism.
It could also be because of conflicts arising within a family or within the community because the woman wants autonomy and control over her own life."
High suicide rates among immigrant communities living in the UK were first identified more than 15 years ago.

www.thefword.org.uk/2011/03/british_asian_w/

The Southall Black Sisters released a report today stating that suicide rates among British women of Asian origin is twice the national average. Those under 35 are three times more likely to kill themsleves than other ethnic groups. The report cited domestic violence, abuse and arranged marriage as the main causes for high rates of suicide.

Asian Network’s phone in show debated the subject and had some horrific examples of how Asian women can be driven to take their own lives. Some listeners may find the programme upsetting.

If a woman suffers physical or mental abuse from her husband, Asian society says she will bring shame on her family if she speaks of it in public. Divorce is rare and frowned upon and daughters are encouraged to do everything they can to make the marriage work. Some parents will even ignore cries for help from their own children. There are services targeted at Asian women, but those women who move to the UK only after marriage may not even be aware of them or how to access them. In this situation, suicide sadly seems to be the only way out.

Personally I am shocked at the numbers. The only way to bring them down is education of those members of the Asian community who think a woman should just put up with any violence her husband inflicts on her rather than divorce him. But perhaps more importantly, the Asian community should be teaching its men that inflicting violence is wrong.

Great post flufflepuff.

posted this on another thread but think its worth repeating here also

www.spectator.co.uk/2015/03/swedens-feminist-foreign-minister-has-dared-to-tell-the-truth-about-saudi-arabia-what-happens-now-concerns-us-all/

But Margot Wallström is that modern rarity: a left-wing politician who goes where her principles take her.

Saudi Arabia has successfully turned criticism of its brutal version of Islam into an attack on all Muslims, regardless of whether they are Wahhabis or not, and Wallström and her colleagues are clearly unnerved by accusations of Islamophobia

Sins of omission are as telling as sins of commission.
But when a politician tries to campaign for the rights of women suffering under a brutally misogynistic clerical culture she isn’t cheered on but met with an embarrassed and hugely revealing silence.

Mad I have had two Muslim friends who have recently suffered domestic violence, fortunately they both have now secured divorces. But they both came under pressure from both family and community to make the marriage work. In one case the lady now has a legal injunction against her husband as he was extremely violent and would not behave in a decent manner. Being violent towards the children also.

One of the ladies was so ashamed of crying in front of me it was heartbreaking, she thought I would judge her for failing in the marriage, nothing was further from the truth. There is that sense of having 'failed' in some way which I don't think is the same in western culture. Nobody judges a divorced woman or man, we just assume it didn't work out, end of story.

Domestic violence is always wrong and that goes for partners of either sex who are abused in this way.

Yes awareness and support are the ways forward.

Shins, where I live there are some women who do work, some it's part time, a few are full time but offhand the only ones I can think of are 2 of the teaching assistants. Many of the women are stay at mums, I would say a higher proportion than in other demographics, it's hard to say how many don't work by choice or would like to work and can't/don't. There is also of course the issue of childcare which is a bugbear for us all, although a telling point is that the holiday club was closed due to low uptake, something which caused me huge problems when I worked for a company.

Yes, look at the disgraceful silence from feminists about the New Years Eve attacks. I'm still shocked about that. A lot of people have no credibility at all for me after that.

Really interesting article Mad, it is quite worrying that women's rights are seen to come last and not matter.

Flufflepuff - "But I point-blank refuse to just not feel anything for the person (and people) who end up committing atrocities like this. I wouldn't want their lives for anything and I hate that they've been born into a system where that's turned into their one and only life."

Yes, of course it was the system that made this murderous fucker pick up an axe and drive its blade into other innocent human beings - no personal responsibility on his part. In the fantasy world of the apologists, he is the real victim after all.

There are a great many people born into the same system, who have horrible lives and don't commit murder, how do they manage to stop themselves?

sportinguista, it's a mystery, isn't it? It's almost as if individual human beings had minds of their own, and moral agency, and the responsibility for their decisions lay with - gasp! - them, not with 'the system', 'the West', or any of the other bullshit excuses regularly trotted out for the crimes they commit.

Ah you mean that free will thing! It's a bugger isn't it, makes us do all sorts of things that are hugely bad for us.

Of course there's always the classic, the devil made me do it...

I wouldn't want their lives for anything and I hate that they've been born into a system where that's turned into their one and only life.

So that system (Wahhabi or fundamental Islam) is abhorrent to you?

It is a beautiful and frankly, the ultimate, way of life for millions of people world wide.

It is as vital to many as breathing; it informs every single aspect of their waking moments, from praying five times daily, to clothes, diet, speech and thought and the way society, law and government is organised.

Yet you feel pity and revulsion.

So, other than asking people to just get on nicely with each other, how would you reconcile 'this system' with a Western way of life which advocates and champions free speech, choice, equality and freedom of religion?

How do the two 'systems' co-exist?

I'm all ears.

I have no problem with people prescribing their lives in various ways with the rules they decide, it's when they decide that they would like others who choose a different way to do so and try to do it by force.

Personally I couldn't live in such a prescriptive way where everything is laid out for me and everything from my diet to the way I dress and who I can be with and how is decided from the day I am born. But many do seem to require these certainties and rigidity in their daily life.