Germany :(

[nuttymango]

And now Germany - an axeman has attacked people on a train.
BBC breaking news - www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36827725

I saw this on BBC it is both encouraging and at the same time chilling.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36838216

Thank you DisforDora. I live in a multicultural area, it isn't perfect, there are problems with the many diverse groups that live there, I wont pretend there isn't. But on the whole we do manage normal life!

I think education is massively important, leaders in communities can also speak up and advise people that these things are not 'okay', that times have changed and if we all want to live peacefully together then we must stop violent practises

An excellent point, but on a practical level, what can be done about those so entrenched in their hateful views that they're not prepared to do this? Such folk and their followers aren't going to moderate their behaviour just for the asking, so what is the answer? Remove their access to the internet? Circulate some kind of instruction that they're to be ignored? Try to get them to attend courses? Jail them?

They won't like that ...

Puzzledandpissedoff - I honestly don't know about the practical level, but in this country we can obviously do much more than in others. In schools we can educate young people, of all backgrounds, about how these 'traditions' (for want of a better word) are outdated and harmful. As for people who are radicalising others we must take stance as a country and say NO, we will NOT have that here - jail for those who are born here, extradition for those who weren't?
Mostly I think it needs to come from the top, the leaders of these communities/countries.
The problem is how to tell people that everything they believe is 'wrong' or misguided? Some people will mock or deride Islam (and other religions/groups of people) as a whole and I think this will make people naturally defensive, rather than doing this perhaps people could accept that Islam, like all religions, has it's good points AND it's bad points. I think Christianity is a religion that has progressed with the times (albeit slowly), with the acceptance of female Vicars and seemingly more accepting of homosexuality (although I know this is an ongoing issue), perhaps if we look into religions that have moved on we can use it to help us in dealing with other religions/groups.

Lovemy, I agree that a lot of hate is driven by social media. Politicians and mainstream news have a lot to answer for too.

I was reading about the break up of Yugoslavia the other day and how rather than focus on their declining economies, leaders began to store up nationalist sentiment and encourage divisions. I see something similar going on now, especially where I live where a mainstream newspaper recently published an article on how genocide of white people is happening. This language is often a precursor to war or people being wiped out or oppressed.

Where I live, Muslims are the new scapegoat. It was Romani people before that. There are virtually no refugees here, but they have been depicted as a threat in the news, that people often say how scared of them they are. This has resulted in various 'sightings' of 'refugees' in local supermarkets and petrol stations, who have turned out to be professional footballers and Roma, to name a few.

I think.a lot of people think what they are saying is ok because it doesn't sound so strong as some expect the language of racism to be, but the whole narrative of immigrants coming to the UK that may be a drain on resources is loaded with prejudice and blame, yet it became a mainstream view and acceptable.

I'm off on a tangent really, but I think that politicians using xenophobia to achieve political goals and to conceal their own deficiencies is really worrying.

We have Kelvin McKenzie openly displaying his hatred for a female journalist for wearing hijab and blatantly trying to stir up hatred. The message from mainstream news is sometimes that Muslims don't belong.

There has been frequent questioning of why Muslims are quiet when atrocities happen and this has disgusted me. The level of responsibility some people ascribe to all Muslims for the murders carried out by a few individuals is ridiculous.

I really don't understand this sympathy/empathy for the attacker. Many, many people have terrible upbringings/traumas/losses in their lives, yet they don't go around attacking and killing innocent bystanders. Much less ones in a country which has kindly given you asylum after you travelled through many other (less desirable but perfectly safe) places to reach.

Some do attack people though gingham, so I don't really get your point.

Can I just say that I understand the fear, anger and frustration people feel when hearing about the Muslim terrorist attacks. I feel it too and my view of the view has become much bleaker because of these incidents.

www.ibtimes.co.uk/german-train-attack-riaz-khan-ahmadzai-left-letter-saying-muslims-must-defend-themselves-1571681
This article states the killer Ahmadzai may have been motivated by 'revenge' after hearing of friend's death. The young man's letter to his father reads: "And now pray for me that I can get revenge on these non-believers, pray for me that I go to heaven."

So yeah, the notion of going to heaven by killing infidels is sick. One of the biggest problems I see are the Internet and easy proliferation of hatful ideas via groups such as ISIS and too many radicalised clerics around the world emphasising hostile aspects of Islam. A reformation must come from within Islam. Maybe from Muslim women?

Positive change and peace will never be achieved by us Westerners responding in simplistic, black & white and hateful ways.

*This article states the killer Ahmadzai may have been motivated by 'revenge' after hearing of friend's death. The young man's letter to his father reads: "And now pray for me that I can get revenge on these non-believers, pray for me that I go to heaven."

What I am saying is that an eye for an eye is not the Christian way and will never work.

I say this as a non-practicing Christian. I like the sentiment, I'm not a church going person because I feel the church has abused its power and I cannot stand for it..

Matthew 5:38-48:
You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

I think this is beautiful.

A reformation must come from within Islam. Maybe from Muslim women?

How? What power do some women have in their families, the more traditional ones?

They are being killed and slaughtered in their own families for minor transgressions . They are being rejected for marriage because their privates have not been mutilated. Where is their power? How do we support these girls and women?

I know, when a woman has fled to the police for help, they speak to the very people who are trying to harm her - either her parents or the community elders.

Trapped, helpless. Sent to sharia court. Community pressure.

But its supposed to come from them

of ffs Mad
"They are being killed and slaughtered in their own families for minor transgressions . They are being rejected for marriage because their privates have not been mutilated."

All of them? Really?
How come the Muslim women I know are wearing the proverbial trousers and are community leaders in their own right, some of them so confident and well articulate who make create ties between different groups of women in our neighbourhood. Your posts sound so ignorant and narrow minded Daily Mail like.

Positive change and peace will never be achieved by us Westerners responding in simplistic, black & white and hateful ways.

^^ The West had given this boy sanctuary and food and shelter for two years and then places him with a foster family.

what more could THE WEST have done?

Mad you seem hellbent on being angry and unreasonable and on tarring all Muslims with the same brush. That is not a healthy way of life.

Did you miss the SOME from more traditional families?

Your friends as "some" of mine have been lucky. MANY not so.

I find it repugnant that you classify such horrors as merely Daily Mail tripe. This is peoples lives.

It's a lovely sentiment, but practical action is needed. Madmen's point about the women requiring empowerment to actually do this. Traditional Muslim society is very patriarchal. We would need the men to actually listen, respect and act on what the women were suggesting, that may be difficult.

So he decided to revenge himself on some Chinese people, who I believe are not involved in Syria or Afghanistan...yep he was definitely misguided at best. Quite a few Syrians and other people across the world have lost friends through war, they do not all think taking an axe to others will make it better. Who made him think that it would? Was he talking to someone who convinced him it would?

Yes I am angry that girls in the UK (which purports to support women's rights moving towards a fairer society) are being let down.

If you don't know or realise their plight, you are the very ignorant one, not me. If you cant see beyond your own happy Muslim friends, you are the short sighted one, not me.

Lovemy, many of the women in my community are quite prominent, but they in the main are the British born ones and quite westernised. There are others who are more recent arrivals or are from families who are at different levels of tradition and they are not doing the same things as the others. It is not a complete picture of one thing nor another. Some of the women do indeed have to still fight for their right to be who they are, some are lucky enough to be supported by their families to be strong and confident. Across the world the picture is different and the life of Muslim women and indeed women in general is not the same for those here - this applies to women of many other faiths too. For women to be able to change things requires courage and empowerment and sometimes sacrifice as envinced by the suffrage movement here.

No I did not miss anyone Mad.

In answer to "How? What power do some women have in their families"
I reasonably replied "no, not all Muslim women are victims".

You sound easily outraged. With all due respect, you might find it helpful to talk about your fears with someone professional. This could help you be less hateful and adapt to your environment, an environment with many peaceful lovely Muslims in it, and some nasty ones too. The men who commit these atrocities are as hateful and fearful as you come across. Hate and fear will not lead anywhere good.

Yes sounding extremely patronising will be a great start to that too. Please be polite, nice and agree to disagree. Mad pointed out quite rightly that some women have very little power in their family and community, not all. Worldwide the picture for women is not great. Not all women are victims, not all men are violent. Not all Christians are white, not all Muslims are black/asian/ME, not all children have the terrible twos.

It was a lovely sentiment that women can change the world, we can, but things have to change for us too, to help us all live in a better world. Many men need to see things in a different way too. How long will this all take? I won't see it, I'm not sure my son will or even any children he might have it may take many generations.

No Sport she completely refused to engage with any possible constructive solution to the problems we have. She and many others on this thread are totally negative and just happy to sprout anti Muslim sentiment without looking at the bigger picture. Please note that I am neither pro Islam nor am I minimising the stuff that's going on if you read my threads. However there is much hysteria about Islam on MN at the moment and it is part of a general racist and xenophobic trend, in part unleashed by Brexit but was brewing beforehand.

I suggested that change much come from communities and that perhaps Women might be able to drive change. To shoot this down by staying that they are all killed and oppressed is simply ridiculous not very helpful. There over a billion Muslims in the world and many live in our country. Fear and hate are not the way forward. I will leave you all to your Muslim bashing on this thread.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-36766749

Er, I didn't bash Muslims I tried to give a balanced view of things. I actually said the reverse, it's a mixture. Some from traditional families as Mad stated will need help to be empowered to drive that change. There is work for example going on in DRC where women are targeted with help so that they can drive change within their communities, but this requires a change of attitudes and also to a certain degree social structures giving the women in those communities the framework to take charge and drive the change required. I personally agree that women are part of the way forward, but educating and changing the attitudes of men is just as important. There are great strides to be made across the world in supporting women's rights. I have just for example read that there are 6000 new cases of FGM in the UK, I also read about this too:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36843769

Both make me sad and angry inequal measure and if you read the second article is within a Christian community, so not all horrible practices are happening within the Muslim community at all.

just happy to sprout anti Muslim sentiment without looking at the bigger picture
Sorry I thought I was looking at the bigger picture which is that within some communities and faiths, some women have very little power.

The males in the family feel justified in even going so far as to kill them because of small misgivings.
Other males feel comfortable to reject those who have not undergone FGM for marriage. They are shunned and ostracized in their communities. Many women cannot speak English and when there is a family grievance they are taken to Sharia courts where they are at the mercy of the elders. And this is the UK. What power do these women have when not only customs, religion and community is weighed against them but also the very LAW of the land.

You seem to be un aware though of the depth and reach of female repression in our society. Now you have some more knowledge of it, why don't you engage with that and look to come up with solutions.

I have just for example read that there are 6000 new cases of FGM in the UK

and how many prosecutions?

if we want to support these women we need to train police to help them too, as I mentioned, women who have fled to the police then endure the indignity and the danger of the police then returning them to the very people they are fleeing from and need protection from. Their family.

"and how many prosecutions?"

This is a problem of policy and lack of political will. It's got nothing to do with training Police. No politician wants to touch it with a barge pole.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/female-genital-mutilation-guidelines some policies have been put into place. Interestingly the last time I check this page the policy from 1 April 2016 had not yet been withdrawn. I think the Liberal Democrats are involved to some extend and more outspoken on the topic than other parties, I don't remember the name of the female politician who pushed for stricter policy framework on this a couple of years ago. I don't think it led anywhere.

There is no such thing as the 'Muslim community.' There are Muslims in the Uk from a range of diverse backgrounds with a range of cultural practices. Some Christian communities in Africa practice FGM also it's got nothing to do with religion but 'culture'.