Germany :(

[nuttymango]

And now Germany - an axeman has attacked people on a train.
BBC breaking news - www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36827725

I am saying this as someone who is extremely critical of and uncomfortable with organised religion and who feels very disturbed about fundamentalist Islam.

To me religion has been and continues to be used to indoctrinate people and turn them into marionettes. It's a vehicle for power. If there is a god he / she is not to be found in a book and I am against societies living by any law that is tied directly to religion. That's my western view, it makes sense to me. I am able to realise that I think this way because of my individual and collective history and culture I was socialised and educated in this way. I also have the ability to see that the majority of Muslim people are born into a culture, which becomes an inherent part of them.

To those who call Muslims barbaric on this thread: You are no better than the nasty men who brainwash young children in Pakistan and MENA who tell the young Muslim children that Christians are barbaric and disgusting and have revolting practices whilst asserting their own Muslim superiority. You think and act the same as these people you promote hate not peace.

cleo, I'm not. But again half of children in care end up in the criminal justice system.
Goodness shins your alternatives seem to be 'patronising and pitying' or to 'hate and despise'.

To those who call Muslims barbaric on this thread: You are no better than the nasty men who brainwash young children in Pakistan and MENA who tell the young Muslim children that Christians are barbaric and disgusting and have revolting practices whilst asserting their own Muslim superiority. You think and act the same as these people you promote hate not peace.

^ THIS!! Well said!!

I think I have not at any point said that Muslims are barbarians, and I truly do not believe that as many are my friends. But I and also they are all too aware of the issues within the faith on both a local and a world level. However because I do not concur with the absolute world view of some posters I am lumped in with others who may or may not have said this.

I do try to balance the views, in that I try to look at each case on its own individualities and the facts rather than supposition or on unproven ideas.

In this case as I have said several times we probably will never have the full insight due to the death of the perpertrator. It is the same with the man who shot his wife and daughter today, he is dead and we will never know what went through his head. Did he have mental health issues too? We won't know for certain.

So all we can do is look at the facts, look at the bigger picture and try to solve this mess the best way we can. But you know what? I don't think we will ever have either the resources nor capability to solve it all, sadly.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

I suppose all the perpetrators of honour killing have MH issues too

In 2011, Belgium held its first honor killing trial, in which four Pakistani family members were found guilty of killing their daughter and sibling, Sadia Sheikh.[10

Ghazala Khan was shot and killed in Denmark in September 2005, by her brother, after she had married against the will of the family. She was of Pakistani origin. Her murder was ordered by her father to save the family 'honour', and several relatives were involved.

France

France has a large immigrant community from North Africa (especially from Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia) and honor violence occurs in this community.[104] A 2009 report by the Council of Europe cited the United Kingdom, Germany, Belgium, France, and Norway as countries where honor crimes and honor killings occur.[105

In 2005 Der Spiegel reported: "In the past four months, six Muslim women living in Berlin have been killed by family members". The article went on to cover the case of Hatun Sürücü, a Turkish-Kurdish woman who was killed by her brother for not staying with the husband she was forced to marry, and of "living like a German". Precise statistics on how many women die every year in such honor killings are hard to come by, as many crimes are never reported, said Myria Boehmecke of the Tuebingen-based women's group Terre des Femmes. The group tries to protect Muslim girls and women from oppressive families. The Turkish women's organization Papatya has documented 40 instances of honor killings in Germany since 1996.[108][

In 2006, 20-year-old Hina Saleem, a Pakistani woman who lived in Brescia, Italy, was murdered by her father who claimed he was "saving the family's honour". She had refused an arranged marriage, and was living with her Italian boyfriend.[117][118]

In 2009, in Pordenone, Italy, Sanaa Dafani, an 18-year-old girl of Moroccan origin, was murdered by her father because she had a relationship with an Italian man.[119][120]

In 2011, in Cerignola, Italy, a man stabbed his brother 19 times because his homosexuality was a "dishonour to the family

Anooshe Sediq Ghulam was a 22-year-old Afghan refugee in Norway, who was killed by her husband in an honor killing. She had reported her husband to the police for domestic violence and was seeking a divorce.

and so on.

Emily do you feel for these perpetrators too?

In Sweden the 26-year-old Iraqi Kurdish woman Fadime Şahindal was killed by her father in 2002.[122] Pela Atroshi was a Kurdish girl who was shot by her uncle who was radical Muslim in a brutal honour killing in Sweden.[123]

In 2010, a 16-year-old Pakistani girl was killed near Zurich, Switzerland, by her father who was dissatisfied with her lifestyle and her Christian boyfriend.

Every year in the United Kingdom (UK), officials estimate that at least a dozen women are victims of honor killings, almost exclusively within Asian and Middle Eastern families.[126] Often, cases cannot be resolved due to the unwillingness of family, relatives and communities to testify. A 2006 BBC poll for the Asian network in the UK found that one in ten of the 500 young Asians polled said that they could condone the killing of someone who dishonored their family.[127] In the UK, in December 2005, Nazir Afzal, Director, west London, of Britain's Crown Prosecution Service, stated that the United Kingdom has seen "at least a dozen honour killings" between 2004 and 2005.[128]

In 2010, Britain saw a 47% rise of honor-related crimes. Data from police agencies in the UK report 2283 cases in 2010, and an estimated 500 more from jurisdictions that did not provide reports. These "honor-related crimes" also include house arrests and other parental punishments.[129] Most of the attacks were conducted in cities that had high immigrant populations.[130]

Yes, terrible events madmen. Other than copy and pasting these reports and adding sad emojis, what feasible strategies are you proposing to tackle these problems?

Probably a borad range of complex, diplomatic, empathetic effective approaches would be needed, some of which might bring about change on small scales.

Demanding Muslim clerics tell their followers their holy book is' just a book' and screeching how Muslims are backwards and barbaric and saying that the only way to prevent English racists from ripping a woman's headscarf off is to prohibit this religious attire in the first place is not going to bring about the positive change many of us would like to see.

Rather these understandable but shit stirring responses add fuel to the fire and perpetuate the viscious cycle of hate.

And let's not pretend that the groups in our country who'd love to see the back of foreigners, Muslim and otherwise are proponents of gay and women's rights. Sadly UKIP, BNP etc. have more in common with Muslim extremist and regimes such as the current one in Turkey than some people on this thread would like to admit.

I'm so pleased Sadiq Khan is Mayor of London. Thew world needs people like him. People who can look beyond their own immediate experiences and relate to other and make it their life's work to build bridges.

Thank fuck that bastards dead.

I don't see anyone screeching on this thread. And comparing UKIP to Islamist extremists is ludicrous and offensive.

Lovemyretsis that is a superb post.

I've been following the thread, and I've looked back. I cannot find the post where Muslim's were called barbarians. Is there actually one?

Yes lovemy.

No I just made it up

Or maybe..it was deleted.

It's the utter certainty with which people spout their bigoted nonsense/"expert analysis of Muslims" that amuses and horrifies me in equal measure.

And no, the vast majority of children in the MENA region do not go to watch executions instead of going out to play

Personally I think a holistic approach of promoting moderate behaviours in all religions is the way forward, of promoting choice in practice. I have had some more Westernised Muslim friends told that they are not 'good enough muslims' that they should behave 'better' ie. More conservatively. To me it's a straight case of personal choice, religion should be a personal thing in which you can decide for yourself.

FGM and honour killings are something that can be educated against and also prosecutions will have to be brought as it is after all murder. Changing the concept of honour and there being no need for it to be seen that way will help. But it will take many years before we start to see real progress I think, decades. I think what people are getting at is these crimes are what we find barborous, not Muslims generally, there have also been honour killings and FGM in other religious communities.

I did not read into that particular comment that all children in ME witness executions, but some undoubtedly, sadly do mainly because they may be in ISIS controlled territories, the damage to these youngsters is incalculable. I watched a documentary about the children living under ISIS and it was horrific what was happening to them, their childhoods are stolen and replaced with a brainwashing that is of the most horrific kind. Some of the parents have joined ISIS but not all, some are placed under duress and have no choice. It will again take many years to deal with the consequences if ISIS actions.

I don't think comparing UKIP to ISIS is particularly helpful. There are extremists on both sides of the spectrum, neither side should be given credence as they damage all our chances. The path forward lies together. We are finding too many ways to divide ourselves, by religion, race, gender etc. If anything we should be trying to break down those barriers not put more up.

Pakistan are to pass honour killing law, in the wake if the murder of the social media star who was killed by her brother. Hopefully it will not be opposed.

"I don't see anyone screeching on this thread. And comparing UKIP to Islamist extremists is ludicrous and offensive."
UKIP and BNP have more in common with Erdogan and his islamist politics. Saying that I believe (sadly) that Erdogan is quite a bit more intelligent than any member or representative of the British right wing parties (which is lucky for us in the UK).
Yes lots of virtual screeching, if you can't see it, read again.

"Thank fuck that bastards dead."
Is what Islamist chant when a Non-Mulsim or 'mot-enough-Mulsim-in-their-eyes' or 'not-the-right-kinda-Muslim' dies at their hands. Same hateful speech and think.

"Pakistan are to pass honour killing law, in the wake if the murder of the social media star who was killed by her brother. Hopefully it will not be opposed."
That's good, it's a start but probably will take a long time to sink in. I hope 'honour' 'male-ego' killings will punished severely.

The person upthread who suggested banning the burqa. How do you propose that targeting women will stop the (99.9% of the time) men who carry out such attacks, be they small scale or mass murder?

I agree with the poster who said that it is naive and patronising in the extreme to label all those who commit crime in the name of religion - whether it be slaying strangers or an honour killing within the family - as mentally ill. They believe they are right .

I think - no, know - I am right in many of my beliefs. I believe passionately in animal rights, for example. Someone with a different view point may see me as mentally ill because of that and in need of "intervention". Just doesn't work.

A lot of honour killings are done because the person believes it is absolutely the 'right' action to take, in most instances that is how they have been raised. They have been taught that honour killings are acceptable within the family or community, these people weren't born thinking killing people was 'okay' in the 'right' circumstances. If my son was born into such an environment then the chances are that he could play a part in honour killings, these people can't help what life they are born into. I'm not excusing their behaviour, it's unnacceptable, but to vilify them without looking at the bigger picture simply is not helpful in my opinion.

What can be done? I think education is massively important, leaders in communities can also speak up and advise people that these things are not 'okay', that times have changed and if we all want to live peacefully together then we must stop violent practises. I think we all can play a part too, through discussion on places like here (you never know who might be reading and it may make people rethink things even just a little), by not making things about 'us' and 'them' - this isn't just 'their' problem, it's everyones. Some ethnic minority groups are accused of not intergrating, perhaps that might be because they feel not wanted here, perhaps they feel shunned by people outside of their own ethnic group - could we perhaps help more with the intergration? be a little more encouraging? I know these things may seem small and not enough, and on their own they probably won't be, but over time, with the help of government initiatives, support groups and charity support I hope a difference can be made.

I don't think all or even many Muslim extremist are mentally ill. Some will be mentally unstable due to genetic disposition, their early childhood or experience of trauma, due to war or abuse. I do not for a second believe that Wahhabism (if indeed Wahhabism is driving global radical Islamism as has been suggested, not sure if it is) results in people being mentally ill in the clinical sense. Some people are being radicalised in parts of the Muslim world and in Muslim communities in the West. History shows again and again, people love to be made to feel special and perceive themselves as 'above' others especially if they have little education and life prospects. We can see this with the whole Brexit thing and it's happening right now in Turkey.

Having a common enemy is a simple and effective way to strengthen the cohesion of communities and distract from inequalities and power hungry individuals. People who are systematically brainwashed and radicalised probably act 'rationally' in accordance with their world views. The Internet has a lot to answer for in terms of spreading hateful messages, it has given a platform to even the most hideously uneducated and bigoted voice and panicked hyperbole.

On threads lil this the common enemy of the majority of posters are Muslims. On jihadist social media it's the non-believers. Same shit.

The majority of posters Lovemy? Please point out where I have said that I believe that Muslims are my enemy? I have many as friends and believe it or not some of those are strongly questioning the extremes within their faith. It is the extremes of that faith, indeed any faith or ideology I believe to be unhealthy, and that includes extreme right wing sentiment. At the moment due to the attacks it is having the double whammy of feeding off each other to divide people. Right now attacks do seem to be happening with regularity and that is alarming but it shouldn't change the way people percieve their friends and neighbours, I know it hasn't for me.

At least the BNP themselves are in decline as a political force: The party stood eight candidates in the 2015 general election, a reduction of 330 from 2010, and received less than two thousand votes. Unfortunately there are still the EDL and there are right wing parties all across Europe which need to be tackled but I think the majority of normal law abiding citizens are balanced enough to see what is happening for themselves on a local level and that includes some people I know that many here would describe as thick and uneducated, but are actually some of the nicest most tolerant people I know.

THe thing I see as the main enemy to us all is actually the interest of big business being put over the welfare of us all, something I see happening all the time. We have built a world where there is prosperity without humanity and the super rich are kings.

Erdogan? He may be slightly more intelligent, but that just means he is more able to apply his ruthlessness and lust for power and control.

Anyone who is interested in the whole issue of honour killings should watch the film "Catch me Daddy" it's a small independent film but very powerful and well made. Not sure how easy it is to get as we streamed it.

Not you Sports your posts are really interesting and balanced and I have learned from them .