Mass shooting in Orlando

[MissJM1]

How sad. Inside a gay nightclub, they say there are hostages and the shooter could have an explosive

How do pro-gun posters explain how there have only ever been a handful of shootings in countries where members of the public as a rule don't have any guns in their possession, if carrying a gun makes you safer?

Is it some huge coincidence that countries where you can't go to a shop and buy yourself a firearm don't have scores of people bring murdered all over the place?

Chilled warmth.

Well yes. But it's considerably less likely.
When was the last time we lost 50 people to a single gunman in the UK - a country with a similar threat level as the USA.

If you want to discuss it you really have to step away from really scarily daft arguments.

What are you protecting yourself against with your guns, chilled?
Genuine question.

I am not American, I have lived in the US, various places, for a number of years, I have worked in inner city DC hospitals. I don't get this 'I need a gun in case I get burgled' - far more people get shot by their own guns in their on homes than get shot by the perp bringing a gun. Far more children get shot by their parents guns (overwhelmingly by mistake or when 'playing' with them) than get deliberately shot by anybody.

I genuinely don't get the argument for gun ownership for the vast majority of people.
If you are living in the wilds of Montana and bears go through your backyard, fair enuff.

The best trained fighter would struggle to kill 50 people with his bare hands in one night - another thing I don't get: 'guns don't kill, people do'. Guns are a very very efficient and fast and cheep way to kill lots of people - what's not to be wary about?!

I was in the car the other day listening to the radio when they announced that in the USA a woman had been shot with her own gun, in her car, when her small child found it and fired it.
My 13 year old DD said 'what kind of idiot carries a gun in their car with their child.'

She's 13. It's not rocket science. Can we just aim for a baseline less stupid than a 13 year old?

I live in such a place where seeing armed police is noteable. I walk the streets day and night (well only when I need to, not for fun) and I happily leave my house and car unlocked. I feel safe. The concept of needing to defend myself is alien.

I suspect the biggest killer where I lI've is alcohol and cars.

Chilled you are clearly a law-abiding person, so my prediction is that if the law changed, you would indeed give up your gun. I think you are right though that the law will not change. I think it is important for non-Americans like myself to accept that the USA even more than here has a government that rules by consent, and the people consent to the risks of potentially universal lethal weapon ownership. There is no level of gun death yet reached that has caused that consent to be withdrawn.

Which kind of makes you wonder how so many Americans view this level of carnage as acceptable?

I can't imagine having the mindset that people's 'right' to own a gun is more important than their right not to be killed in a nightclub, TBH.

Thora perhaps they might connect the freedom to go clubbing and have sex with your choice of partner, to the freedom to own or carry a gun. I don't think they would see it as a hierarchy.

I may say that I am not pro-gun, I am a conventional European in this regard. But where a situation in another country is alien, I think it's important to try and understand it.

Probably my American aunt would tell me to shut up now as she would like the gun laws changed, like many others.

Hey PacificDogwood. I'm defending myself against a range of possible attacks. I like knowing that I have that option available if required. I agree with the point you made about children playing with guns and killing people as a result. A gun is not a toy. Whatever you feel about adults being allowed to carry or even own them, what's undeniable is that children shouldn't be allowed to "play" with them.

Terrorists are quite capable of using anything to kill large numbers of people, bombs, planes, you name it.

Except wannabe murderers can't pick bombs and planes up in the supermarket. Hands and knives may be readily available but mass murders with those would be almost impossible.

Chilled, how do you explain the number of mass shootings in the US compared to the number in Europe without reference to differences in gun control? What answer do you think we're missing?

Either Americans are inherently evil, murderous and bloodthirsty. Or their gun laws suck.

I don't see any other reason in the disparity between the USA and comparable nations.

Sorry to be another one to be asking you a question Chilled, but I'm presuming it's a handgun you carry. Can you explain any legal/reasonable reason why anybody would have an assault rifle. With my limited knowledge of guns I can't see one, a handgun and shotgun have a limited capacity and can be used for recreational purposes, but an assault rifle?

Do you actually carry a gun every day? Like to work and to buy milk?

I read a very incisive tweet just now, which said that Sandy Hook was the end of the American gun debate, because if murdering swathes of little children wasn't bad enough, nothing ever would be.

Obama has been on, very sombre and moving. He has addressed the nation 15 times in his presidency on mass shootings. If that doesn't tell you something, chilled I don't know what does. He did refer to gun ownership and asked "is this the sort of country we want to live in?" or words to that effect.

This is not a gun issue, it's an Islamic terrorism issue. France, Belgium, etc., have suffered similar attacks recently, despite stronger gun laws.

If this were perhaps a teenage boy shooting up his school, then guns might be more relevant.

As it is, guns are not the elephant in the room.

Vague I think you're right there. And god help the US if Trump gets in, that'll be the end of it forever.

Thora I can't imagine that mindset either. But it's not a case of choosing because you won't die because I have the right to own and carry a gun. Annandale thanks yes I am a law abiding person but this would be a red line.

No, it's still a gun issue.

In all the other situations the authorities are trying to get control of gun access. In the USA they don't seem to see the connection.

If this were perhaps a teenage boy shooting up his school, then guns might be more relevant.
As it is, guns are not the elephant in the room.

That argument would only work if there weren't so many other mass shootings in the US, several of which have been teenage boys shooting up their schools. You can't look at this as a single occurrence.

And obviously it is nonsense, to say this has 'nothing' to do with Islam.

The overwhelming majority of Muslims reject homosexuality, and shariah law criminalises, or even imposes the death penalty, for homosexual acts.