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Mass shooting in Orlando

447 replies

MissJM1 · 12/06/2016 10:33

How sad. Inside a gay nightclub, they say there are hostages and the shooter could have an explosive

Sad
OP posts:
DianaRoss · 16/06/2016 16:37

Ego Years ago I worked in the Gender Identity Clinic at CXH under Don Montgomery, and I knew the urological surgeon that we tended to use, quite well too. I am sure you know all this, but in the evenings we ran a deportment and other classes. I was not aware of any hate towards the pts. There was curiosity and gawping, but that's inevitable.

We listened very carefully to what was told to us, and there was psych support as well, but we never heard stories about hate and possible violence. I can only surmise that these attitudes have sprung up towards trans, and I wonder why. Only you will know this; can you put your finger on the type of individual who has behaved the worst towards you?

If hostility and aggression is commonplace for you, then all I can say is that in the 80s and 90s it was not there.

Egosumquisum · 16/06/2016 16:46

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PacificDogwod · 16/06/2016 16:49

Good grief, I am a regressive leftie? I'm not sure what that is tbh.

Of course recent (since 9/11) terrorism has been carried out by people who are muslims.
And loud and vociferous demonstrations in London or elsewhere like you described upthread, Diana, are horrible and IME an invitation to radicalisation and committing hate crimes.
How is any of that 'the Elephant in the room'??

I am old enough to remember the IRA (and the RAF in Germany) so terrorism is of course not limited to Muslims or Islamists. And there are plenty of 'rebel' armies out there that are 'terrorists' in that they are purveyors of terror and violence, some with more, some with less political aim.

The most recent atrocity in Orlando was quite clearly against the LGBT community (stating the obvious) and of course the LGBT community and every individual who identifies as belonging to it face all sorts of day to day discrimination and violence well outside of terrorist acts. Being part of a disadvantaged group which then also gets targeted by a terrorist/disturbed mind/disturbed mind used by a wicked extremist organisation (or even just manipulated in to his act) is a double whammy that must be very difficult to recover from.
And Trump coming out in support of LGBT because what? He thinks there are some easy votes to win?? What will his Bible Belt voters think of that??

Extremists scare me.
Frothing at the mouth scares me.
Absolute certainty that ones stance is Right and everybody else's is Wrong scares me.

Egosumquisum · 16/06/2016 16:55

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Egosumquisum · 16/06/2016 16:57

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DianaRoss · 16/06/2016 17:22

I'm not the mind police. I do not expect everyone to agree on all matters but as long as a person's beliefs do not affect another's life or getting work, then people can believe and worship anything they want.

It's only when an individual's insistence of being right and others are wrong meet that trouble happens.

If you believe that people with ginger hair originally came from outer space and are the only people who are not fully homo sapien, go ahead but you cannot act on that belief to the detriment of ginger-haired people.

Peter said upthread something like .... You can dislike whoever you want to, but you cannot do something about it. To me that is the difference between civilised and non-civilised. No one can be allowed to act out hostile thoughts.

Egosumquisum · 16/06/2016 17:39

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sportinguista · 16/06/2016 18:00

The thing is some beliefs normalise a kind of hatred towards certain sections of society and may give people the confidence to act them out in a belief they are right. This is why we need to challenge these beliefs at all times or it does creep from the thinking it to acting on it. Changing peoples minds and encouraging tolerance and respect is what is required and no one is exempt from that - not on any grounds!

Egosumquisum · 16/06/2016 21:37

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chilipepper20 · 16/06/2016 22:29

So... you're being dismissive of the role of Christianity in the killings of African LGBT people.

why is that not a bigoted comment? if you replace christians with muslims you will get all sorts of "but it's not all christians" and "it has nothing to do with religion" and other such nonsense.

Yes, with christians it also is religious. 20 years ago it was christians quoting their magical book. I give the bible a wide berth on account of all the nonsense in it, but I still remember the oft quoted verse from leviticus about men lying with men on account of all the signs it was on. It was hateful stuff then, and used to suppress all sorts of rights of gays in america. Liberals were targeting christians with well deserved criticism.

Why is what I just said not bigoted by today's standard? is it because the target is white people? Why have liberals stopped criticising bad conservative ideas.

it's awful. and the people most hurt by this are the people we are supposedly protecting: other muslims.

PausingFlatly · 16/06/2016 23:53

chili, I was citing Diana, who said, it would be impossible to be so dismissive of the role of Christianity if a similar outrage occurred. But then went on to be dismissive of the role of Christianity etc. And was therefore doing exactly what she was complaining about in others.

I don't think it is OK not to criticise ideas we feel are bad. Though there are obviously dynamics about whose criticism will be best informed and have most impact on the criticised. Why would anyone take seriously criticism from outsiders - and particularly outsiders with a history as oppressors? (Certainly in postcolonial politics this is a major issue, and in RL I've occasionally had to button my lip because the fact something is coming from me - with my colonial privilege - will be enough to discredit it.)

But I also don't see that criticising such ideas is incompatible with slapping down the immensely tedious shit from people who actually are pushing anti-Other agendas. It's textbook treatment of an othered group that the actions of one stand for all: eg when James crashes the car, that's because he's James and isn't good on corners; when Jane crashes the car, it's because women do that.

So when there is a suspicion of othering or group-blaming, it's quite common for reactions to include reminders that #NotAllOtheredGroup. If it's a good discussion, that shouldn't be where it ends. But if one of the parties really is mainly interested in othering, it can run into the sand at this point. Or it might just fail because neither party puts in the effort to get over that hump.

PausingFlatly · 16/06/2016 23:55

what she was complaining about in others in privileging a particular religion

chilipepper20 · 17/06/2016 00:31

hough there are obviously dynamics about whose criticism will be best informed and have most impact on the criticised. Why would anyone take seriously criticism from outsiders - and particularly outsiders with a history as oppressors?

obviously that's part of the issue, but I think we are all going to have to bite the bullet. We aren't colonial oppressors anymore. Saudi Arabia I think has the fourth largest military budget, and some of these countries have massive incomes.

But another reason why we need to start criticising it is that it is happening in our country. When I say our country, I don't mean that in us v them way, I mean that the repercussions of not speaking out now hits really close to home.

PausingFlatly · 17/06/2016 01:58

We aren't colonial oppressors anymore

I'm tired and it's late and I don't want to derail, and I can't think how to quickly summarise why the history still strongly affects the dynamics when a white liberal "criticises". Maybe useful to think of male privilege, and how oblivious men often are to it, and the impact this can have on attempts at discussion?

But also doesn't mean there should never be any discussion, of course.

Sorry, very tired and inarticulate.

PausingFlatly · 17/06/2016 02:06

Meh, what I should have said is, it doesn't really matter if I don't think I'm a colonial oppressor.

If the person I'm talking to is working from ideas and narratives which draw on that history, then that history matters.

PacificDogwod · 17/06/2016 12:51

Yes, history does matter - joint and shared history, whether within living memory or much older than that.

And I strongly agree it matters what goes on in this and other Western countries. Othering whole swathes of the population is not going to help. We need to be more inclusive to various marginalised groups, not less.
That does not mean that no criticism of whatever practice or verbal expression is allowed, but actual listening to various groups agenda is what I feel sorely missing.

I don't want to live under Sharia law, just like I don't want to live as a strict Calvinist Christian. I think the fact that so many recent terrorists have their faith in common is such a strong indication at just how far removed some feel from power. I think we are witnessing the fall of the Christian Empire. Whether the end result is going to be a Kalifate or China as a world power, influencing all our culture (food, music, fashion, turns of phrase etc etc as the US have, certainly since the end of WW2) or some other outcome that I cannot anticipate, I don't know.

chilipepper20 · 17/06/2016 22:39

but actual listening to various groups agenda is what I feel sorely missing.

what do you think is not being listened to?

I think the fact that so many recent terrorists have their faith in common is such a strong indication at just how far removed some feel from power.

right. But islam gives them a narrative to act our their frustration in violence. white britain has had an underclass for a long time, but there frustration is acted out differently (drugs, alcohol, and petty crime).

PacificDogwod · 17/06/2016 23:41

what do you think is not being listened to?

Disenfranchised young men, feeling they are being hard done by and being denied, I dunno, power/influence/riches/virgins?? No idea Confused

There has been terrorism forever and I don't think that there is one single reason for the rise of Islamist terrorism in the last 15 years so.
I was in Boston during 9/11, then travelled north in to Maine. It was a very surreal experience to have been so close to events and seeing the papers full of faces and obituaries of mainly Bostonian people who died in the planes was just too awful for words.
But most shocking for me was how many random Americans we spoke to (waitresses, bloke at the petrol station, random guy looking at the same attraction we went to etc etc) who appeared genuinely baffled as to why any person or group of people or organisation would hate the U.S. so much to do what they did.
There was not an inkling of understanding what American imperialism (maybe cultural imperialism, mainly) and war fare and playing of financial hardball had done in the middle East etc. None.

I don't know why it surprised me so much as I had been up against just how insular and isolated many Americans are from world events before, right back to when I was 10, visiting relatives in the States on my own, and nobody could believe that I wanted to go back home at the end of the school holiday. How could I want to leave 'the best country in the world?" I was 10, I wanted to go back home and see my mummy and my friends and just, you know, be home.
Aaargh, I have quite a conflicted love/hate relationship with the U. S. of frigging A.

chilledwarmth · 18/06/2016 00:12

I can understand where some of the hatred towards my country comes from. I'm not saying it was justified, it certainly wasn't justified, terrorism like that never is, but I do understand where some of the anger that led to that attack comes from. The American government tries to interfere all over the world and it seems that every time we do, lots of innocent people die. We're foolish if we don't realize those people had families who will be out for revenge. We don't all have the same jingoistic "USA! USA!" approach to foreign policy. Unfortunately for us, the people who make the decisions do.

DorynownotFloundering · 19/06/2016 05:30

I don't hate the US it's a fab place full of beautiful scenery, interesting places to see and (mainly) good people. What I do hate is the arrogant attitude of many in power & the obsessive belief in guns as the ultimate solution.

For all the discussion here about Islamic influences, the fact remains this was a hate crime against the LGBT community, he was a US citizen & he had easy access to deadly weapons, and we should not lose sight of that.

sportinguista · 19/06/2016 07:09

Chilled it's a bit of a difficult situation intervening in other countries affairs but sometimes the US can even be criticised for not intervening. Intervention was seen as coming too late in Bosnia and there was the feeling that many more could have been saved if it had come earlier. In Syria the intervention was a little more difficult and and add to that we also have the Russians intervening on Assad's side and probably bombing MSF hospitals etc. They have also suffered revenge attacks. I personally don't hate America or Americans as such because I am intelligent enough to know that by no means every American agrees with the actions of whatever government might be in at the time. Just like across the world many people do not agree with the actions or political stance of their governments.

The Islamic aspect is a factor in the sense that many young people from that community who live and have grown up in the west may feel at any time at odds with their traditional background and some of the normal activities western teenagers take for granted, for example wearing what they like, going out with whom they like and to what activities they like. I think what most of us don't realise is that religion for many Muslims is something that governs them in many aspects of their lives, from what they wear, to what they eat, where they go and with whom, who they can marry and in the daily act of worship. It's far more pervasive than many other faiths. I see it around my area many of the teenage Muslim boys go through a phase where they try to be gangsta etc, this tends to be speedily followed by marriage in their early 20's and children pretty quickly afterwards, the girls have a bit less freedom. Some of the boys do go entirely off the rails and end up in the justice system for a variety of offences as well, which can be due to family breakdown which is becoming more common in this community too.

My point is that there is conflict in many young people's minds between the community they come from which holds traditional and often conservative values and the larger evironment they find themselves in.

There is unfortunately a great deal of animosity still towards LGBT community from various quarters. I read of a coach driver in Scotland who recently refused entry on a coach to a young gay couple, telling them people 'like them' should not be allowed on McGill's coaches. I know gay people face this sort of discrimination and lower level all the time.

Easy access to weapons? Well as we all saw this week it seems if you wish to get hold of a weapon to carry out an offence there are ways and means. This man had a responsible job as a security guard, they had investigated him for the remarks he had made but at that point had no real evidence, on paper the gun shop would have not seem him as a risk, after all you cannot deny someone something because of their background. As I've said upthread it is the US which needs to decide how their gun laws should be tightened. Personally I think that the right to bear arms should be by no means universal, but even were that to be so I do think it doesn't exclude the possibility of a determined offender being able to get hold of a gun.

iloveham · 23/09/2019 17:47

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