Mass shooting in Orlando

[MissJM1]

How sad. Inside a gay nightclub, they say there are hostages and the shooter could have an explosive

"Liberal" USA. LOL.

On reflection, Mum, the difference between what happened in Orlando and the commonly held view by most muslims about homosexuality, single women and a whole bunch of other things boils down to either simply continuing with that intolerance or taking physical action about it. But the original belief is the same - otherwise throwing gays off roofs in Pakistan and elsewhere would not happen. They are mainstream people from the village, not insurgents.

It is the same mindset that was operating six months ago in Cologne and many other cities in the EU, except those MENA men did not have weapons but they still managed to molest and rape European women who had the temerity to be out on the streets at midnight.

Do you think ordinary muslims help?

I note you didn't actually answer my question chilipepper but I will answer yours. Yes, ordinary muslims help by:

• By not blowing people up, shooting people or throwing them off buildings.
• By routinely condemning people like Omar Mateen and their actions.
• By consistently putting up with the hatred, suspicion and misunderstanding directed at them and yet still maintaining their moderate position.
• By often alerting Imam's, community leaders, the intelligence services and agencies to community members suspected to having extremist views, or being at risk of radicalisation.
• By calling for reform and for tolerance.

How else would any rational person reasonably expect ordinary muslims to help? There is no overarching muslim grapevine, no Islamic magic circle, by which moderate muslims can identify each and every radical. It is a world faith of 1.6 billion people. A determined, organised (and possibly mentally ill) individual like Mateen will always suceed in carrying out violence, and views like his will always exist (with or without religion) even if we saw widespread reform of the muslim faith.

I haven't read the article you refer to, but I will google it. If the report says what you say it does, then that's very sad. It's certainly not reflective of the views of British muslims I know, including my own immediate family. Of course we need to call for tolerance from all of our communities, and not only towards LGBT. But I think we can accept that a muslim who does not accept that homosexuality should be legal, but is otherwise moderate, is highly unlikely to do anything but condemn the event in the US. Just as a Christian who does not accept that homosexuality should be legal (they still exist!) would more than likely condemn it. Just as there are homophobes in the muslim faith there are homophobes in every faith and homophobes of no faith at all.

You reference the 'muslim community' like it is one single, coherent, easily definable body of people. This is crazy. We are talking about 1.6 billion people spread across the whole world. Views will differ vastly and be influenced by countless factors. Views will even differ vastly within one state, be that secular or otherwise. The acceptance of sharia law differs wildly, and there are predominantly Islamic countries where the majority of muslims do not believe that sharia law should be the law of the state. Most muslims around the world believe that sharia should not apply to non-muslims: www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

So if we can apply this knowledge and consider wider beliefs, we begin to see how diverse attitudes and interpretations within Islam can be. This diversity in belief and interpretation is true of every faith, of course. This event is only a "religious problem" in that an atrocity was carried out by one man with his own interpretation of a faith. It's no more legitimate to call this a religious problem than to call those lunatics at Westboro are a religious problem. Homophobia may even be the status quo amongst some muslim communities (as it is amongst some Christian, Hindu, non-faith communities, etc) but we clearly have to acknowledge that many muslims reject this, and are calling for reform and tolerance. Look to Sadiq Khan if you want an example.

And you know what also hurts chilipepper? People who are unwilling or unable to differentiate between 1.6 billion muslims, who are every bit as diverse in their attitudes and beliefs as any other group of 1.6 billion people. Personally I am far more alarmed by that fearful attitude than anything, and more afraid of the devision that comes from that type of attitude than I am of radical Islam.

I think we may need to turn your post into a 'stickie' soon, mumonacornishfarm. I can think of three recent threads where it would have been useful.

Now we have another community with even worse issues with homosexuality than christians 25 years ago.

You are absolutely right, chilipepper, and of course unlike Christians who are always been criticised and do not retaliate, no one is willing to publically criticise Islam for fear of retaliation. Social pressure is very difficult to enforce on muslim communities, so they are immune from the full extent of our displeasure with them and their ways. (I wish the late great Christopher Hitchens was around!).

DianaRoss maybe that attitude means that you are the one who is incompatible? Islam isn't going anywhere. It's 23% of the global population. So you stick with your devisive attitude, and be pretty bloody fearful I imagine, or you can get a better global view. I suggest you could start by visiting a mosque, I promise it's not that scary.

Sorry thecat I don't know what a stickie is. I haven't been on MN for long. Ironically I started spending more time here than FB because I tired of all the sickening and ill-informed anti-muslim bullshit I was seeing there. Guess there's no escape from it, and an incident like this one always brings them outing in force, barking at the fucking moon.

My sister was married to a muslim man, Mum. Seen how he and his brother beat her up, been to a mosque, children still in fear of their father, am aware of the rancid views held by his extended family about people who live differently. I shudder when I recall some comments by made ex-FIL ... totally scary.

Thanks for the link, mamamea.

Looking at Hope Not Hate's own comment on Raquel Saraswati, they say she was initially included in the report for a very specific thing, her links to the Clarion Project. And that they subsequently found out more about her and removed her from the report.

I've never heard of the Clarion Project. Googling gives that it's "an independently funded, non-profit organization dedicated to exposing the dangers of Islamist extremism while providing a platform for the voices of moderation and promoting grassroots activism."

I can't tell on a quick glance whether this is yet another tedious, tedious spat about how best to do things between two groups who are basically on the same side (pro tolerant society, anti extremism), or whether Clarion has another agenda with a bit of cover.

I have no particular allegiance to Hope Not Hate (I occasionally get mailings from them). But that doesn't look like a policy of silencing criticism of Islamist extremists. Particularly as they loudly and in detail... criticise Islamist extremists.

Oh well Diana why didn't you say earlier? Clearly you are an expert on the Muslim faith and all 1.6 followers of the faith.
Your shit of an ex-BIL is one man. One single, dreadful man. Not representative of all muslim men. My brother is a muslim. He's bloody great! Also not representative of all muslim men.

Mum Take a look at the Cologne threads on MN - all 9 of them, that's 9,000 posts. 1,000 ME-NA men in Cologne alone molesting and raping women.

This taharrush was replicated in at least six cities in other EU countries just six months ago. Yes, we have misogyny everywhere, but the magnitude of this organised assault was something new to Europe, and the perpetrators were men all from the same cultural background & faith who could not contain themselves, did not want to contain themselves, and maybe even wanted to show contempt for women who had the gall to be out in the streets at night celebrating NYEve. I would hazard a guess that their belief system encourages them to be sexist misogynistic homophobes.

I don't think we should necessarily overestimate how tolerant Islam is. Islam is definitely NOT tolerant of homosexuality. The concept of 'kafir' is VERY widely promulgated to judge non-Muslims. And antisemitism is de rigeur - here where I am people wear Hitler shirts, and the top rated comment on local reports on Orlando was that it was a conspiracy by the Jews and the Americans. No, that doesn't mean you are going to get killed by a Muslim, but it does mean that there are some very hateful strands of thought that are promulgated through mosques and Islamic teachers.

And of course, it is absolutely misogynistic. When I pass a mosque at prayer time, and see women at the back, or even outside, while the men are at the front, I shake my head in wonder - but people are so brainwashed that they think nothing of it, and if you questioned it they would think you were mad.

Diana if it is indeed the muslim faith that encourages men to be violent, misogynistic and homophobic then why aren't all muslim men like this? Could it be perhaps that there are many things that influence and contribute to these attitudes and behaviours? Things like personal beliefs (not necessarily religious and the prevailing culture (again, not necessarily religious) of the country and region they come from, and education? We have to accept that not all muslim men are like this (unless you want to assert that my brother is a closet wife beater?) and if we accept that then we can see that it is the individual, and not the faith, thst is to blame.
So what is it that you would like to happen? Maybe for the Qu'ran to be re-written? Well that's not going to happen, and even it it did the misogynists would still misogynists, the homophobes would still be homophobes, and the wifebeaters would still be wifebeaters. Because religion itself doesn't cause these things, people do.
Maybe you'd like ordinary muslims to condemn such behaviour. Well that already happens, so I'm sure you're very happy about that, as am I.
Or is it that you find Islam so "incompatible" that you would like to see faith cease to exist altogether? Because that wouldn't be a terribly moderate view, I'm sure you would agree.
Perhaps you'd like to see all states become secular? Well if that's the case then, great! We've found something in common. But that still doesn't address the issues we've mentioned above, so we're still living with the misogynists, homophobes and wifebeaters.

I have had gay friends who have faced abuse and attacks from Muslim men because of their sexuality. I have walked around our area with a very obviously lesbian friend of ours. It was an eye opener, the horrible expression of hatred on many of the faces was as hideous as the expression on any far right skinheads face when dishing out racist abuse. The spitting in front of her, the lewd and vile remarks. Just because you happen to follow a religion doesn't give you a get out of jail free card to do what you like. I know gay people face attacks from other groupings too. But it should still be challenged whatever the background of the person. It appears this person did this from a religious motive, many others do on a lower level because it is a tenet of their faith which they use to map out the way they live. Nobody around my area has killed anyone because of this yet. Hopefully they never will, but people like my friend still have to put up with the low level hate and abuse.

sportinguista nobody is denying that this type of thing happens, and it's terrible. I personally haven't heard anyone excusing this type of behaviour, on the grounds of faith or any other reason. In fact I only ever hear people, including muslims, condeming this type of bigotry. Let's not forget that muslim minorities are also often on the receiving end of such vile, aggressive and regressive hatred for no other reason than their faith. Bigotry is bigotry, it's never excuseable. But we really are in a very dark place indeed if we start to make negative assumptions about 23% of the global population based on nothing but fear of their faith.

23% of the world population sounds a bit of a high estimate. Is that correct?

I'm sure figures vary originalmavis but I got that figure here: www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/07/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

Wiki says much the same: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations

Sounds lots. I'm my mind I'm counting China, Russia and India, chunks of Europe, America's etc. But I guess that in some countries it's assumed a rate of 99.9% are Muslim, like it would have been for Christianity in England in the 17th century.

Do you think it's wildly inaccurate original?

Just sounds like a big number. I haven't really given it much thought and I assume there are plenty who would be counted (on assumption) of being Muslim but are more 'born' and not 'practicing'.

I imagine you are right. But I imagine that's equally the case for any other faith being counted.

Or double counted (DS would b be claimed by 2) or triple counted - don't the Mormons claim that everyone is 'one of them/us'?

I can't imagine that the researchers are referring to any religious institutions to get their figures, that would seem extremely flawed to me (with my limited experience of research). But they would have to make their research methodology clear so it would be available to check.