Mass shooting in Orlando

[MissJM1]

How sad. Inside a gay nightclub, they say there are hostages and the shooter could have an explosive

I'll have a look at the numbers. I love stats.

I note you didn't actually answer my question chilipepper but I will answer yours.

he was clearly extremist in the sense that this doesn't happen everyday, but his views that gayness should be punished isn't extreme as evidenced by the survey I mentioned.

- By not blowing people up, shooting people or throwing them off buildings.

that helps? I would have taken that as just basic decency. How low the bar is now.

- By consistently putting up with the hatred, suspicion and misunderstanding directed at them and yet still maintaining their moderate position.

Am I misunderstanding Islam when I say it seems rather homophobic to me? From what I can tell, the religion itself is anti homosexuality, and most muslims (at least in Britain) think it should be illegal.

Please explain where I am wrong when thinking islam promotes homophobia, or that it is not mainstream among muslims to be anti-gay.

- By often alerting Imam's, community leaders, the intelligence services and agencies to community members suspected to having extremist views, or being at risk of radicalisation.

that's great. I am glad muslims are doing that. Non-muslims cannot help in this regard, so it's good that muslims are doing this. Here I agree, and I hope more do this.

- By calling for reform and for tolerance.

well, now ordinary muslims can't really do that, can they? almost by definition ordinary muslims can't be reformers. reformers are outliers, not part of the mainstream.

Most muslims around the world believe that sharia should not apply to non-muslims

wow, really? did you know that most sikhs also think that non-sikhs should be allowed to cut their hair? Sorry for being facetious but this is a great illustration for how low standards have become. The number of muslims who should think that sharia should apply to non-muslims should be 100%- the number in ISIS (the so-called extremists), but it's not. It's not even close.

More shocking, however, is the content of your link. I have seen that poll by pew before and the first time I say it my jaw dropped. It doesn't at all support the view that ordinary muslims are moderate. In fact, I found the results of that poll downright frightening. Question after question has absolutely appalling levels of agreement with medieval ideas.

I haven't read the article you refer to, but I will google it. If the report says what you say it does, then that's very sad. It's certainly not reflective of the views of British muslims I know, including my own immediate family.

Well, that's great for your family, and I hope their ideas spread throughout the community. I just reread the article and 52% of muslims think homosexuality should be illegal in Britain. Only 18% said it should be legal, so a good group of muslims are on the right side of that (as a comparison, only 5% of the population as a whole think homosexuality should be illegal).

So, while your family may be different, from the results of these polls, it sounds like they are very much outliers, and that should be acknowledged.

DorynownotFloundering your post at 'Tue 14-Jun-16 09:42:54' is very moving. It is very sad indeed.

I'm not surprised you found it frightening chilipepper. You are clearly a very frightened person. How terribly sad for you. But fortunately you don't get to decide what people should believe, so in turn I'm a very happy and relieved person. It would be a very frightening society indeed if people like you got to call shots like that.

I'm not surprised you found it frightening chilipepper.

different standards I guess. I find the large number of muslims (more than half in Pakistan, which is a huge country) who think apostates should be punished by death rather frightening. But some people are made of sterner stuff than I am, I guess.

What have I said that is frightening? I never said anyone should control what others think (nope, that's for the large number of people who believe in apostasy laws).

chilipepper if that report says most british muslims believe homosexuality should not be illegal, that is VERY different to saying that most muslims believe that it should be punished by someone walking into an LGBT nightclub and butchering 49 people. How dare you you suggest that those two things are even remotely close to one another?! And the report that I gave you very, VERY clearly shows that there are different attitudes to sharia and many muslims believe there are different interpretations of sharia. You are INCREDIBLY ignorant and offensive and your views are dangerous.

Strangely I find it frightening that a very large group of people indeed believe that another group who want to live their private lives in a different way, should not have the right to exist and should be criminalised under British law. As I have said I have experienced with friends first hand this gamut of intolerance to hate. British law is quite clear, that homophobic acts are a hate crime, as is attacking someone on grounds of race or disability. I wonder if there were attacks on another group on the grounds of race we would be saying it should be for those people to decide what they believe. I think we would be challenging them and saying, no sorry I'm afraid you are wrong. And just for the record I'm not saying it blanket applies as I'm sure there are a range of views. Unfortunately many religious books are quite clear on what is their stance, but we need the perspective that they were written in different times so their application to the modern age probably has it's limits.

How dare you you suggest that those two things are even remotely close to one another?!

I never said that, so please read correctly before making ridiculous statements. I never said that muslims (in any numbers) suggested that people should be shot for being gay. I said that more than half of muslims think it should be illegal, and I was quoting a poll. The only leap I made is that illegal things should be punished (that's rather normal). Perhaps muslims think that gays should be fined or something, or that it should be illegal with no punishment. I have no idea. But usually things that are illegal come with some kind of legal deterrent.

Strangely I find it frightening that a very large group of people indeed believe that another group who want to live their private lives in a different way, should not have the right to exist and should be criminalised under British law.

but the people calling them out for it are the divisive ones. Up is now down, and black is now white in this new world.

Do you believe in freedom and tolerance and the right to live your life in safety and without fear for all Cornishmum? I believe most Muslims wish for that. So too do gay people. The rights and wishes of one group do not trump another. Would you say that far right people with views that all people of certain colours or ethnicities should go unchallenged? Because if you are applying the same principle across the board that is what you would have to do. If you allow it in one community you also have to apply it in others. As it stands we are all equal under British law and are also subject to those laws and have an obligation to understand what that means and that it is the end point in an argument, and Sharia after all is not the law here, however much some would wish it to be.

And the report that I gave you very, VERY clearly shows that there are different attitudes to sharia and many muslims believe there are different interpretations of sharia.

Well I guess we are all lucky that more than half of muslims think it shouldn't apply to non-muslims.

What are we (non-muslims) supposed to conclude from that rather vague finding? What is more concerning is the answers to the direct questions on punishment for certain "crimes".

Chili, when homosexuality was illegal here people were imprisoned for it. I do not think people would suggest a return to that and anybody suggesting that should be the case, of any faith or stance needs to be challenged.

No groups rights trumps the rights of another, we need to be clear about this.

I don't know what happened in this young man's life, it seems he had some very complex factors, which may have been partly due to his background and maybe issues around his own sexuality. He seems to have at least have some issues with radicalisation as well. He commited an atrocity, that much is clear, he destroyed a great many people's lives.

There are gay muslim people and what I can gather is they have a very rough ride due to their backgrounds. The religion is very conservative in some communities, that is I'm afraid a fact. It makes things very difficult for these young people.

sportin homophobia is not the same as a homophobic act. Of course it is right homophobic act is considered a hate crime, and punished as such. I don't hear anyone who is arguing against that, do you? But ignorance and bigotry are not a crime, even though they are awful. And homophobia does not necessarily lead to a person to commiting a homophibic act. Personally I would prefer to punish someone once they've committed a crime, and not before (maybe that makes me a liberal leftie, or whatever anyobe wants to call me). When we start to tell people what they should believe or not believe then we are in big trouble of taking away not even freedom of speech, but freedom of thought. We should be challenging bigotry in all its guises, not only homophobia. But if we start making negative assumptions about a group or individual based on their faith alone (rather than their actions) then how are we any better than someone who makes negative assumptions about an individual/group based on nothing but their sexual orientation? Or gender? Or nationality? Someone's faith does not tell us all we need to know about their set of beliefs or their actions. And I am glad you mentioned other faiths, because I do not know a single one that teaches absolute equality.

I pointedly said it wasn't blanket opinion Cornish. But these views I believe are being platformed in Mosques etc. If they were being platformed elsewhere we would challenge them. I don't doubt a good many of the older generations have fairly negative views on the subject but we do not allow them public platform. I believe the Cof E at no point has actively encouraged it's vicar's to preach anti gay views. And there is the issue of shouldn't we all be working towards making it a more fair tolerant society for every member of it to live in? I've not made negative assumptions about the whole of the Muslim community, I know many, I live in a mainly muslim community and am aware of the wide variations, I am also under no illusions that this prejudice does exist. I'm not going to pretend for the benefit of anyone that I do not think that viewpoint is wrong. People can think what they like but we should maybe be trying to change that just as much as we would somebody who holds racist or disablist views.

"Personally I would prefer to punish someone once they've committed a crime, and not before (maybe that makes me a liberal leftie, or whatever anyobe wants to call me). When we start to tell people what they should believe or not believe then we are in big trouble of taking away not even freedom of speech, but freedom of thought......"
Frankly, I'd prefer to not have to punish someone at all, prevent the crime. And in order to prevent homophobic hate crime, you do have to change attitudes and point out ridiculous beliefs when you come across them.

"But if we start making negative assumptions about a group or individual based on their faith alone .." You can't behave as if what people say they believe has no effect at all on their actions. If you believe that homosexuality is a sin (or being homosexual isn't, but acting on it is, or whatever other gymnastics the Anglicans are attempting at the moment!), then that effects your behaviour towards homosexuals, from offering to pray for you at every opportunity, to refusing to acknowledge your partner, to opposing gay marriage, to celebrating the death of people like Matthew Shepard, to throwing gay people off buildings.

These aren't accidents or unexpected acts, these are people acting on what they say they believe.

If you're not going to make negative judgements about people based on what they say they believe, then we are in liberal lalaland.

It's not simple ignorance, or simple bigotry, let's be specific here, we are talking about religions and religious belief.

Indeed Dyke, would this young man have done this if he had not been exposed to this as a legitimate point of view? We are all shaped by the views and sources we are exposed to. A child exposed to racist views in the home may well believe they are 'right' and then play out this in other settings, why should it be any different for any other kind of prejudice.

The main thing is we should never be afraid to challenge it what ever kind of source it comes from.

When we start to tell people what they should believe or not believe then we are in big trouble of taking away not even freedom of speech, but freedom of thought

And yet countless posters on MN seem happy to do exactly that, where their "preferred group" is concerned Our rights to freedom of speech and belief either mean what they say or they don't - and if they do then that has to apply to everyone, even if convictions (religious or otherwise) are offended

I've resisted this idea for most of my life, but sometimes I wonder if those who say aspects of Islam are utterly incompatible with western society have a point

homophobia does not necessarily lead to a person to commiting a homophibic act. Personally I would prefer to punish someone once they've committed a crime, and not before

Hi, MumonA, this has confused me. Are you saying that it's OK to be homophobic as long as it doesn't translate into a 'homophobic act'?

And how would you define 'homophobic act?'

Mass shooting? refusal to allow a homosexual to enter your home? refusal to shake hands? choice of another job candidate? rejection of friendship?

Do you think acceptable homophobia is just quietly choosing not to interact socially with homosexuals?

And if any of the above are acceptable, how would you feel if we replace homophobia with Islamophobia? Do you also defend the right of people to dislike Muslims as long as it does't become an 'act'?

Or do you think that any kind of hatred based on prejudice and ignorance should be condemned?

Finally, discrimination law in this country rightly trumps any religious belief, so would you expand on your comment about 'faiths'? as I'm not sure what your point was?

You can't police what people think.

I mean we have a secular framework in place to support equality. It doesn't matter what people think privately- the law is the law and they have to abide by it.

I am not sure that we have an entirely secular framework to support equality in place. I actually think if we did that would be a step forward. Religion sometimes trumps equality.

In what circumstances?

In my understanding, in UK law, religious beliefs don't trump homophobic discrimination when it comes to offering goods and services.

I don't normally post on these sorts of issues so please be gentle with me!

I just wanted to link a quick speech by a Muslim scholar about the Orlando shootings. I feel he tackles a number of the issues that need to be looked at

In what way ? In that the church is allowed employment practices which discriminate against women and gay people.