Mass shooting in Orlando

[MissJM1]

How sad. Inside a gay nightclub, they say there are hostages and the shooter could have an explosive

HopeNotHate have opened an online Condolence Book, to be presented to the US embassy, if anyone feels moved to sign it:

action.hopenothate.org.uk/page/s/orlando

Signed. Fwiw

I hate to say it (I hate smart arses) but I did wonder if he was gay when the news came out. I then saw his posed photos and was quite sure that he probably was. His dad said he went mad when he saw a gay couple kiss - overcompensation? Now there are reports he used to hang out in gay bars.

So he was possibly brought up with the sick believe that being gay is not acceptable and should be punishable by death.

Reports say that his father had been (in the past) interviewed on a Californian TV station that is an anti American Randy type. Do I suspect the family life was of the 'Its shit here, better in the old country'. I suspect anyway.

God those poor people.

*So does Christianity. Many UK churches will not marry gay people.

That's a far cry from killing them.*

Chilipepper muslims do not kill gay people. Extremists and terrorists kill gay people.

I would not sign a petition from Hope not Hate. They are one of many groups trying to silence criticism of violent murderous Islamists, and even listed a hijab-wearing Muslim woman as anti-Muslim in their 'counter-jihad is Islamophobia' report.

As such their piggybacking on this attack is deeply inappropriate.

HopeNotHate's own website criticises violent murderous Islamists, and actually has dedicated pages criticising Al-Muhajiroun network and Hizb ut-Tahrir.

chili

It doesn't matter if it makes no sense at all to you. It doesn't matter if it makes no sense at all to people who would otherwise be broadly "on the same side" in terms of political/social leanings.

It only matters that it makes just enough sense in the regressive left's echo chamber.

As long as things are hunky dory in the echo chamber, small details like the alienating effect it is having on people who would lean towards supporting similar candidates and hold largely comparable views in the sense that they agree that the best foot forward for a better future requires ever increasing equality for all...meh, who cares about that.

It's days (and threads) like this when I am rather relieved that I am disenfranchised and can't vote at home, or the country I live in. My own side's words and shark jumping positions have created persistent doubts that the left is still my natural political home. After 30 years on this side, that's uncomfortable enough without the added prickles of having to walk that feeling to a ballot box.

But I quite agree that one should be aware who is running petitions or condolence books, which is why I specified HnH in the post.

(Hope Not Hate
"Since 2010, HOPE not hate has focused more on community politics. We have built peaceful and positive resistance to attempts by the English Defence League to divide communities, offered support to and run joint initiatives with Muslim organisations and have begun campaigning against Islamist extremism.")

And as PacificDogwood says, "FWIW". Expressing solidarity feels like such a small thing to do. But for a hate crime, maybe quite meaningful?

If anyone is interested but wishes to avoid specifically political groups, I've found Salford Council has an online book here, and Google is bringing up more, some physical.

Ego & hugs.

As the mother of a trans guy who likes to go clubbing this has really hit home.
Our local Methodist church held an open door vigil yesterday evening for all faiths and none, to light a candle, have a coffee & chat or sit in peace if desired.
They had a list of those named thus far that had been identified. It chills me that there will be some of those guys and girls who died were not out to their families, and those families will never know what happened - some may choose not to know or will be ashamed their child has been outed in this way .

It was that list they finished me off, 20, 21, 26 years old all real people there for a good night out 😥😥😥

I bet some of them were there with straight friends, some will have been Christians maybe some Muslims but many there for the safe space ( they thought) they were offered.

Sorry rambling now x

PausingFlatly: antisemitism.uk/hope-not-hate-condemns-those-who-fight-islamist-extremism/

muslims do not kill gay people. Extremists and terrorists kill gay people. - the definition of extremism is entirely flexible. What may be extreme to one society is entirely moderate to another. We don't all start from the same baseline.

True fourmummy but I would suggest that a 'religious' person who kills anybody in the name of their faith is extreme/radicalised/a terrorist. Wouldn't you? I hardly think that can be called mainstream or moderate. And so this latest atrocity should not colour the way we see Islam or muslims in the slightest.

muslims do not kill gay people. Extremists and terrorists kill gay people.

no, they don't. But non-extremist muslims don't help either. homophobia is pretty mainstream in the muslim community.

I lived in america 20 years ago when the christian community gave massive resistance to things like gay marriage, but that has recently flipped. At that time, the liberal community pulled no punches: criticism of the christians and christianity was everywhere, and rightly so.

Now we have another community with even worse issues with homosexuality than christians 25 years ago. Gay marriage is legal over most of europe, Canada and the US now (we can probably throw in Australia and NZ, but I don't know off the top of my head). The question of gay marriage is so far off the radar in Islamic countries it's almost absurd to talk about it. How about starting with decriminalising homosexuality?

We didn't pretend it wasn't about religion 25 years ago with mainstream american christians. why start now?

Sorry chilipepper, they don't??? So this guy wasn't an extemist or terrorist? Was he just an 'ordinary' muslim then?

but I would suggest that a 'religious' person who kills anybody in the name of their faith is extreme/radicalised/a terrorist. Wouldn't you?

how extremist the view is certainly depends on how well subscribed those views are, doesn't it? Brutal punishments for apostasy are very well accepted in the muslim community, so it's not extremist for anyone to hold those views.

A commonly-held view does not automatically become a non-extreme view. Violence towards gay people, women, ethnic minorities, religious groups, secular groups are all extreme, even when that violence is carried out by the state, or state sponsored. But this attack was neither of those things. Violence carried out by an American, against Americans and others, and not in any way representative of the majority of muslims in the US or the west, and no doubt abhorrent to millions of muslims in many predominantly Islamic states around the world. Extremism at its worst. Don't for a single second suggest that this represents Islam or most muslims because you do not know that.

Sorry chilipepper, they don't??? So this guy wasn't an extemist or terrorist? Was he just an 'ordinary' muslim then?

do you think ordinary muslims help?

A guardian article from April 2016 (you can google it if you wish) covered a poll which said more than half of British muslims think that homosexuality should be illegal. we aren't talking about gay marriage here or Saudi Arabia, but we are talking about just being gay in Britain. My guess is that most christians in the UK aren't even against gay marriage, let alone homosexuality on its own.

there is a big gulf between the two communities, and of course a bigger gulf between secularists and muslims on this issue.

We didn't pretend it wasn't about religion 25 years ago with mainstream american christians. why start now?

Beautifully put

And isn't it curious how respect for / acceptance of someone's claimed religious identity falters so quickly when it happens not to suit?

A commonly-held view does not automatically become a non-extreme view.

you are using the word "extreme" in two ways in your posting, or at least using it in a way that others are not.

When people use the word extremist, they don't mean extreme by some standard, they mean marginal or not commonly held. Under your use of extremism, it's entirely impossible for 100% of the muslim community to be extremist. That's fine, but that's not how I and others are using it.

Don't for a single second suggest that this represents Islam or most muslims because you do not know that.

No, I don't know that, but neither do you. If I had to guess, most muslims would be against such a killing, but i don't know. What i do know is that most british muslims think that homosexuality should be illegal. That's certainly not the same as thinking it's good to walk into a night club and kill 50 gay people, but it doesn't help either. it in fact really hurts.

"We didn't pretend it wasn't about religion 25 years ago with mainstream american christians. why start now?"

Exactly.

We keep waiting for Islam to undergo reform/enlightenment of the kind that a lot/most of Christianity has gradually undergone.

But the enlightenment of Christianity happened at least in part because Christians were subjected to questioning and criticism from outsiders. It forced people to look inwards and ask themselves, what sort of people are we and what do we want to be?

Right now, Islam is being shielded from this kind of process, due to a mixture of liberal pandering and downright fear.

How can any kind of reform be expected in such circumstances?

I read earlier that per capita head, Switzerland has as many guns as the US. Can anyone corroborate?

Every Swiss male has to do national service and during that tie is expected to keep their gun in their home, many keep their gun after national service although I believe the rules have been tightened so you have to have a reason and that automatic weapons are made semi automatic.

Here's the official Presidential statement:

www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/06/12/remarks-president-mass-shooting-orlando

Somehow there is no mention of ISIS or Islam. He manages, however, to criticise guns. But no criticism of the ideology that caused the guns to be used, and which in the past (e.g., at Boston) have been replaced by bombs, aeroplanes, etc. What planet is Obama living on?

Dont make guns illegal make muslims illegal.
It's so bloody stupid isn't it!
The hatred of Muslims will increase people's fears and treatment of US Muslims. They will feel more isolated because they will be made more isolated. The less they feel that they belong, the more likely it is for some to turn towards the welcoming arms of ISIS.
Creating divides makes the situation worse and more dangerous for everyone.

mamamea It was the easy access to guns capable of killing large numbers of people very easily, that is the common factor in all the US mass shootings and was the cause of the deaths in Orlando.
Had he lived in the UK, he would not have been able to carry out that kind of attack.
ISIS did nothing to help or support this man. He walked into a shop and bought the guns and ammunition he needed. That's where the problem is.

I would suggest that a 'religious' person who kills anybody in the name of their faith is extreme/radicalised/a terrorist. Wouldn't you? I hardly think that can be called mainstream or moderate.

I agree, MumOnACornishfarm. It is inculcated into every muslim person that homosexuality is an abomination, even in liberal USA. Ditto any group that is seen as 'other'. I'm afraid that the cultures of the East do not easily dovetail with the West, because we are light years ahead. We went thru our Dark Ages and came out at the other end. Just not compatible, sorry.