Labour and Antisemitism (Part II)

[JewryMember]

Link to original thread

Why do you feel so strongly about this, Shariamom?

Why did this matter more to you than any of your other values that you felt you shared with the Labour Party?

Are you Palestinian? Are members of your family?

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.

Oh my god @shariamom

And you do know, don't you, that many Jews and Israelis share your views about wanting greater rights for Palestinans too, don't you? They just (understandably) don't want it at the expense of Jewish lives.

I'm still not quite getting what this has to do with anti-Semitism in England, at all.

lisalisa - why so shocked. Shariamom's view is hardly unusual. Even if it's not one that most of us here would share.

I do find the idea of cleavages (ie political dividing lines) I mentioned before quite helpful here.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleavage_%28politics%29

Basically, shariamom seems to have decided that the most important factor for her in politics is Israel, and so her final deciding factor for who to support is whether she sees them being pro- or anti-Israel (or Zionism, as she would call it). The defining cleavage for her is about Israel.

Which is interesting, because I would say that Shariamom and I should be on the same side of the main dividing line, not separated by one, as we're both left-wing, longer-term Labour supporters, and members of quite similar ethnic minorities, with probably quite similar life experiences related to immigrant backgrounds, discrimination etc.

So I'm trying to understand why she feels that her "anti-Zionism" trumps all of that.

In 1913 Lenin wrote in Critical Remarks on the National Question:
'Whoever directly or indirectly puts forward the slogan of a Jewish "national culture" is (whatever his good intentions may be) an enemy of the proletariat, a supporter of the old and of the caste position of the Jews, an accomplice of the rabbis and the bourgeoisie.'

Since other nationalities or groups were not singled out for this distinction, we can trace the development of ideological anti-Zionism from Marxist anti-Semitism. It was not only Jewish nationalism that was to be eradicated as reactionary, but "Jewish national culture."

And this is why antisemitism is usually dressed up as anti-Zionism.

"Since other nationalities or groups were not singled out for this distinction, we can trace the development of ideological anti-Zionism from Marxist anti-Semitism. It was not only Jewish nationalism that was to be eradicated as reactionary, but "Jewish national culture."

"And this is why antisemitism is usually dressed up as anti-Zionism."

And also why Corbyn does not appear as robust as he'd be if this was racism directed at other ethnic minorities.

Slightly naff Corbyn as love child of Marx, Lenin and Trotsky www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1211151/Cartoon-hails-Corbyn-love-child-Marx-Lenin-Trotsky.html

Shariamom, where would the Jews go? Would the state you are envisaging allow non - Muslims to love there and worship freely. Would there be a free press? Would there be equality for women?

...to live there. .. of course. Although asking if they could love there is also relevant. Intermarriage? Are you sure you still want to be in the Labour Party?

What about Jewish homosexuals? Would they be shot along with the Palestinian ones?

...and what would happen to white Jewish women on New Year's Eve?

Even Norman Finkelstein, who is not exactly Israel's biggest fan, has said the following: "You can’t...deny the fundamental principle that under international law, Israel is a state. That’s a fact. There are no “ifs,” there are no “ands,” there are no “buts.”" Link.

What bothers me Shariamum is you say "all of Israel should be Muslim lands in an ideal world"
So, all the land should specifically be for the Muslim religion; doesn't offer anything for Arab Christians or Israeli Jews.
Certainly nothing for atheists, lesbians, gay men, independent women.

And Israel didn't "steal" the 1947 / 1948 land - Israel was established with the agreement of the UN, with UN resolutions.
Abolishing the State of Israel is a totally unrealistic fantasy.
Those who insist on this are putting the Palestinians on hold, like a family living in squalor in order to bet all their money each week on a huge lottery win.

imo, the expansion since 1967 should be rolled back, but as part of a deal for secure borders for the original Israel.

Whilst I believe all of Israel should be Muslim lands in an ideal world

Oh dear

I'd ask about the needs of non muslim citizens who don't happen to be jewish, but can't help feeling you've rather given yourself away with that remark ...

I think she gave herself away with her username. I'm not convinced it's genuine.

This, I'm afraid, is the kind of bullshit espoused by a significant number of Muslims, as documented in the Channel 4 documentary, What British Muslims Really Think. I'm not Muslim-bashing here, shariamum has simply expressed the same ideology of a worrying number of those polled.

*as not of.

Yes I know. I witnessed it at my daughters school of all places when the reception year had a family assembly. They put on a play about David and Goliath and a group of 5 Muslim women thought it was an appropriate venue to start shouting out anti Israel comments. They had to be escorted off the premises. I thought at the time they were just spectacularly stupid. Now, looking back I realise they were actually spectacularly racist. I see a lot of Palestinian flag stickers in cars around here. I didn't know what they were until recently.

I'm hesitant about diving into this thread as I'm neither Jewish nor a Labour Party member. But I'm reminded of the problems Labour had in the 80s with Militant entryism and wondering whether there is anything similar going on today, but more Islamist flavoured.

To be clear, I've no beef with the Muslim faith as such, any more than any other faith. But Islamism - which I think is a kind of aggressive theocratic fascism - I find very worrying. And I'm troubled by the way it seems to me that parts of the left have made common cause with Islamists, as they both share a dislike of 'Western imperialism' and a desire to see it weakened or destroyed.

I find myself wondering whether there is any cause to worry about Islamist entryism in the Labour Party? Or is that the stuff of paranoid fantasy? I sincerely hope so.

Hardly paranoid fantasy. Plenty of evidence of it happening. I see it with my own eyes on lefty forums.

To be fair to Islamists, though, and the (possibly mythical) Shariamom, I don't tend to find the Muslim Islamists the worst as regards anti-Semitism, at least not when challenged. It tends to be the very white Westerners who have earnestly latched onto a 'cause' who tend to be the worst. They usually know relatively little about the topic but obviously the little knowledge they have is a dangerous thing. They lack the life experience to understand what discrimination actually feels like. They prefer their stories to be black and white, and the 'Zionist' fits into their pre-determined mould of baddie quite conveniently.

I find them a pain, tbh. Give me an unashamed Islamist, frankly. At least they tend to be honest about the fact they discriminate, like Shariamom.

During my MSc in the late 1970s, I had a sweet-natured chum who belonged to Militant, so I observed them for a full year.
They were boringly ernest, utopian, sometimes hectoring, but not sinister. Never heard anti-semitism, or any wish to abolish Israel then.

In the early 1980s, Michael Foot & Tony Benn had what were considered far left policies, but I think they would have booted out anyone spouting anti-semitic crap.

Livingstone was always of the extreme batshit far left, always deliberately provocative and offensive.
However, I didn't notice any anti-semitic remarks before his 2nd term as Mayor in 2004, when I suspect he suddenly noticed the size of the Muslim vote and had no scruples about maximising it.

In contrast, Sadiq Khan backs a Tel Aviv festival in London and publicly condemns antisemitism.
imo, he appeals to people's better instincts, whereas Livingstone stirs up age-old prejudice of the worst kind.

Great interview in the Jewish Chronicle, very encouraging:
www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/145335/interview-sadiq-khan-believe-me-i-wont-be-another-ken-livingstone

"“We have a huge amount in common."
"I’m completely comfortable in a synagogue, you’re perfectly comfortable with me, even though we’re of different faiths."

You won't read this in the left wing press;

www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/news/crime-court/news_in_focus_anti_semitism_attacks_forced_me_out_of_newham_claims_jewish_former_plaistow_resident_1_4521002?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social_Icon&utm_campaign=in_article_social_icons

That's shocking evilcherub.

Of course you won't, evilcherub, and agree, very depressing. Poor man.