Labour and Antisemitism (Part II)

[JewryMember]

Link to original thread

Grinkle - I'm getting every so slightly bored with your somewhat patronising attitude. The reason that it's impossible to not bring Israeli government actions in to this debate is that IME which I accept of course us nothing like as valid as yours is that when people criticise their actions they are frequently labelled ani semetic. I do know the answer to a) and b) - funnily enough I have friends who are jewish and work with many Jewish people ( mainly in the legal, academic and medical fields) and who range from ultra orthodox ( won't shake my hand) to left wing secular . As for c) I'm afraid if if you believe that, you'll believe anything

"You can't criticise Israel without being called anti Semitic"

I haven't actually seen any coherent 'criticism' of Israel in this new labour anti-semitism scandal (or on mumsnet) Instead, I have seen calls for destruction of Israel, comparisons with nazis, praise for nazis, comparisons with Isis.

Is that what passes as 'criticism' with you Bourdic?

Yes but THIS thread is about the UK Labour Party. It seems to me it's entirely possible to talk about the party and the behaviour of members without mentioning any foreign countries.

Helmet - I'm not going to give your post tge dignity of a reply. I'm think I've had enough of this thread now - some posts are getting hysterical.

But the starting point for the debate was a tweet commenting on the relationship between the US and Israel? If I were inclined to have an outpouring of abuse thrown my way I might be inclined to ask what that has to do with anti-semitism actual or perceived in the UK at all?

bourdic - I frequently hear from the left that when people "when people criticise their [Israel's] actions they are frequently labelled anti semetic." In order words, that the left's valid criticisms of Israel are mislabelled as anti-Semitism.

But what I see with the evidence of my own eyes is, strangely, the opposite. Here we are, discussing, not Israel, but anti-Semitism - in the UK.

Yet you have decided to bring Israel into it.

Now we can certainly agree that someone is trying to conflate criticism of Israel (valid) with anti-Semitism (not valid).

But from where I'm sitting, the only one doing the conflating is you.

Why are you trying to muddy the waters in this way? It appears to be in order to validate anti-Semitism.

I doubt bourdic will be back, though - their reference to 'hysterical' reminds me of another poster who disappeared from the previous thread, whose preferred method of 'argument' was to label people who disagreed with them 'unhinged'.

Not a great loss to the debate.

Eh? Have you actually seen the tweets that Labour Party activists have posted?

Why on earth are you saying 'hysterical'? That's what they have been saying.

I wonder how many of those on the left who think Israel validates anti-Semitism also think Saudi validates Islamophobia.

Just throwing it out there.

Not much to add but following this discussion with great interest.

As you were folks

Grinkle, what on earth are you on about??????!!!!!!

Sharia, what don't you understand, love?

I don't understand what she is asking in her last post??

She is asking: if the way Israel behaves as a nation justifies hostility to Jews and Judaism, then does the way Saudi Arabia behaves as a nation justify hostility to Muslims and to Islam?

My interpretation of grinkle's last post (forgive me grinkle if I misinterpret) is that there are people (like those on the left we are discussing) who profoundly object to actions and policy of Israel and then use that to justify a wider loathing of all Jews.

There are many people (like me) who profoundly object to actions and policies in Saudi, which is a Muslim state, but isn't used to justify hatred of all Muslims.

Thank you, cingolimama - that's exactly what I meant.

To me, assigning collective guilt to a whole race/religious group for the actions of a few of its members is wrong. Thus those who seek to blame all Muslims for the actions of Saudi (or ISIS or whatever) are wrong. I think most on the left would label people who do this racist, and more specifically, Islamophobic. And I would agree with them 100%.

Thus, following the same logic, collectively blaming all Jews for the actions of a few fellow Jews in Israel (or wherever) is also wrong. It is also racist, or more specifically, anti-Semitic.

Wouldn't you agree, Shariamom?

And thanks Wind - didn't spot your post till after I'd posted.

To me, Shariamom, someone who would call the first scenario Islamophobic, but say the other one was fine is a hypocrite. And a racist.

Is that clear now?

I would never call the other scenario fine.
Of course not.
And I say that as someone who believes "Israel" has no right to exist.

I have no time for racists, bigots or hypocrites.

What annoys me is the inability of the political establishment in this country to separate anti zionism from anti semitism.
They are two VERY different things, but as the current row shows, the people in charge either don't know of the difference or don't care.

This current labour row has made me uncomfortable and questioning whether I can vote for them again in the near future

Shariamom - 2 questions:

1. Why did you join the Labour Party? What values did it have that you valued that you maybe feel it has lost? (Off-topic possibly, though I ask as a fellow erstwhile Labour supporter.)

1. You obviously feel strongly about Zionism. What do you mean by that word and by anti-Zionism? What is it precisely that you object to? If you mean anything other than 'hated of Jewish people' for anti-Semitism, it would be helpful if you could give your definition for that one too.

By the way, I could have written the second part of your post myself.

And I say that as someone who believes "Israel" has no right to exist.

Shariamom - is that a typo or your view on Israel?

Yes, it is quite possible to criticise the government of Israel without being anti-Semitic. But NZ and KL were considered to have gone beyond just criticisng Israel.

Sharia mom, if you don't believe Israel has a right to exist there are parties other than Labour for you.

The traveling lemon

Or maybe your point is we somehow deserve it?

Nail on the head.

Throughout time the Jews have been told that they deserve the treatment meted out to them by the nations of the world - because , variously , they control the Banks, they control the media, they plot world domination, they are too rich, too poor , too religious , not Christian , not Moslem , too capitalist or too communist , too isolationist or too involved with government . It is the oldest hatred for a reason and all the expressions and reasons for it are just masks.

Israel is just the latest example. Watch those engaged in debate who will froth at the mouth and wave their arms about screaming calling Israel everything from a Nazi state to a deviant socialist one and everything in between.

Why aren't those self same screamers concerned about the fate of any other countries anywhere at all in the world ? It is unnatural if one is honest for so much attention and the spotlight to be on one nation only . It is another manifest in the oldest hatred and this time the latest trick is to cry that to call someone put on this is to shut doiwn debate leaving the anti Semites to continue unchecked and unabated

I need to be careful to stress that I don't want any Jews harmed or killed, but land for Israel was stolen from the Palestinians, and then Israel proceeded to expand their land, taking more land from the Muslims, and then proceeds to subjugate the Palestinians under an extremely heavy handed apartheid occupation, denying them of even the decency to run their own state of the little land left to them.
I cannot in good conscious recognise the current state of Israel, and believe it has never been legitimate in my eyes.
What's needed is renegotiation, something the Palestinians were denied in the name of zionism originally.
Whilst I believe all of Israel should be Muslim lands in an ideal world, i recognise that after 60 years, it's not so simple to just roll it all back to how it was before.
I'm not saying the Jews have to leave the area, but a new legitimate state is needed. With the Palestinians very much at the table so they get a say on will happen with their own lands, and by that I mean all the area of Palestine including the lands stolen from them to make Israel