Labour and Antisemitism (Part II)

[JewryMember]

Link to original thread

Shariamom - good name, btw - can I suggest you read some of this thread and the previous one? That might answer your questions.

Sharia, go away. And take your punctuation with you.

grinkle - clearly (a) - that is what the Labour party has done hasn't it? I am pretty sure I remember an inquiry being launched, many and varied statements by the leadership denouncing anti-Semitism in any form etc.?

again - "it's not rocket science" is just rude and beneath real debate. I really want to engage in this debate. Attempting to denigrate my questions with "if you don't get it you are stupid" isn't a fabulous behaviour.

Thanks, Win. Really interesting post. Yes, there are a lot of earnest liberals, many of whom I'm sure mean well, keen to show quite how right on they are by having ethnic minority friends (or even as Ken creepily claimed, girlfriends).

I also find people's inability to listen to or believe the voices of those who have actually experienced things, preferring their pre-existing narratives, very frustrating.

WindPower thank you for an extremely well written and thoughtful post.

Unexpsoc, this isn't only about individuals in the Labour Party who are anti-semitic. This is about a culture within the LP which, at the very least, has an extremely high tolerance for anti semitic language, imagery and behaviour.

cingolimama - yes. I worry about this too. But there is a need to be careful and make sure we are rightly not accepting of anti-Semitic language, but allow anti-Zionist comment. I am not clever enough to always spot it in real life in a fast-flowing conversation. My worry is that we end up so afraid of not spotting the difference we allow neither.

unexpsoc - oh come off it - did you just miss Diane Abbott's example of c)?

Really? Or Ken's?

If you've seriously not read their denial that there is a problem, or numerous similar pots/tweets/articles saying the same, then please go away and google and don't come back and comment until you have.

Have you just not picked up a newspaper for the last week?

unexpsoc - avoiding anti-Semitism does not require "cleverness". It just requires you, as the meme doing the rounds on social media show, not to be a "dick".

Unexp - this is something that was discussed in the previous thread. What do you mean by "anti-Zionist"? For many on the left, it means denying that Israel has a right to exist. Or do you mean criticising actions and policy of the Israeli government?

Anti-zionist doesn't mean disagreement with Israeli government policy. It means you don't agree that the Jewish people should have a homeland in the area that they have it now. Pro and anti zionist debate was live in the first half of 20th Century. Israel now exists. The only anti-zionist position to take is one where you want to wipe Israel off the map. That is antisemitism by another name.
Disagree with Israeli government policy towards the Palestinians, towards its borders by all means. Plenty in Israel do what with it being a parliamentary democracy (flawed like any other). Disagreeing with Israeli government policy is not anti zionist. Wanting to wipe Israel off the map is anti-zionist.And anti semitic.

I can't take seriously anyone wanting to undo the creation of Israel. Even if one believes its creation was a crime, it's done. How can people claim to be taking any kind of principled stance if they would destroy it and countenance the displacement/persecution of its approx 4 million Jewish citizens?

There's no real place for 'anti-Zionism' in the contemporary debate except in relation to illegal settlements (and opposition to that is not really even controversial; it has long been the standard position of Western European and North American governments, for starters).

I can't take seriously anyone wanting to undo the creation of Israel. Even if one believes its creation was a crime, it's done. How can people claim to be taking any kind of principled stance if they would destroy it and countenance the displacement/persecution of its approx 4 million Jewish citizens?

There's no real place for 'anti-Zionism' in the contemporary debate except in relation to illegal settlements (and opposition to that is not really even controversial; it has long been the standard position of Western European and North American governments, for starters).

Yes, lavender, I know what Anti-Zionism means. But I think for many on the left who haven't really thought about it, it's a knee-jerk phrase that's used "I'm anti-Zionist, not anti-Semitic". I'm not sure they're calling for the destruction of Israel (though some of them sure are), so much as calling for some resolution and justice for the Palestians.

grinkle - I did Miss Diane Abbots position. No I haven't picked up a newspaper this week. Clearly, as you think I am a "dick" I should perhaps leave this conversation with you.

It's a meme, unexpsoc. Google it. No, I didn't invent it, and no, I wasn't referring to you (unless you're suggesting you go around being anti-Semitic)?

I do find this exceptionalising of the Jews and Israel rather tiresome.

Another analogy - if you meet a Muslim, do you find it really hard to avoid offending them by 'accidentally' talking about terrorism? Or do you just avoid being a dick and saying stuff that's obviously offensive?

Just use your common sense.

I find the idea that it's hard to avoid "accidentally" being offensive quite offensive in itself. It suggests that Jews are especially touchy and it's sooo hard to avoid offending them.

Going back to my earlier reply to you, just be normal. Jews aren't asking for some sort of special care towards them. They're just asking to be treated like anyone else. If you wouldn't make that comment to anyone else, don't make it to Jews.

Well goodness goodness me - we can have a thread about anti semitism without being allowed to discuss the Israeli government and its actions? Grow up

unexpsoc - oh, and if you have really missed all the news this week, I think you might be a bit out of your depth in this conversation! Let's just say it's been a very busy week for anti-Semitism in the Labour Party!

You might find our posts make rather more sense when you realise that the top story for most papers/TV channels for the last week has been...er...anti-Semitism in the Labour Party.

Why do you have to discuss the Israeli government and its actions when discussing anti-Semitism, bourdic?

You do know that:

a) not all Jews are Israelis
b) not all Israelis are Jews
c) no Jews outside Israel have any say whatsoever in what the Israeli government does or doesn't do.

You seem to be implying that what the Israeli government does is relevant to anti-Semitism in the UK. I can't quite see how it is.

Could you elaborate?

If anyone bothered to look at and listen to debate in Israel they would find a great deal of unhappiness about the treatment of the Palestinians. None of those critics is a self hater or an antisemite. It is a shame that those on the left in Britain don't speak to these Israeli voices more regularly and instead, fall back on the "I'm not an antisemite, I'm an anti-zionist" bullshit that just gives comfort to the growing number of overt antisemites in the party.

They don't speak to them precisely because it would undermine their lazy narrative, as Wind said upthread.

I don't think it's clear that (a) is what the Labour Party has done. They have set up an enquiry. That could either lead to positive change or it could be a whitewash. It's too soon to tell.

Similarly for the process regarding Ken Livingstone's recent comments, the party goes through a process. It could lead to KL being permanently expelled or it could end up saying it wasn't all that bad, he can come out of the naughty corner now.

I'm waiting to see what happens.

I am a citizen of this country. I should be protected from racism regardless of what a country thousands of miles away, that I've only visited a handful of times, does.

I've been to Greece more. My ancestors are more recently from Russia. Am I responsible for Putin or Greek debt too?

Why this desire to make Jews answer for what happens in the middle east. Like we have any say or influence.

Or maybe your point is we somehow deserve it?

Good post, Lemon.

Yes, maybe I'm to blame for the Nazis, because my family were German for hundreds of years (until they ran away, obviously).

Oh, I forgot. According to Ken, my family are to blame for the Nazis.