Labour and Antisemitism (Part II)

[JewryMember]

Link to original thread

If anti semitism is wrong, then it's wrong, whether we expect it or not. It's the hypocrisy of the Tories at the moment bring oh so shocked about Labour . Of course we judge LP by higher standards though because they have some standards to be judged against but that doesn mean parties without standards are immune from being judged - that's ludicrous. And anyway the Tories are implying that they are free of anti semitism - as if

I've been thinking the same thing howabout. I was thinking of the women's equality party bit very much doubt they'll be standing in Yorkshire. So, for me it will probably be Lib Dem.

lisalisa, thank you for sharing all of that. I, too, am deeply upset at this sorry state of affairs

Hmm, Bourdic, but when you vote BNP or National Front, you do assume you're voting for an anti-semite. When you vote Labour, traditionally, you wouldn't usually expect that.

Maybe we could theorise that Labour is held to higher standards in the same way Israel is held to higher standards? Or maybe reverse that, the Conservatives are held to lower standards as are most other countries in the Middle East. Its not fair, no.

Who to vote for if not Labour?

I had this discussion with dp the other day. I was relieved that Sadiq Khan immediately denounced Livingstone's comments. I still feel like I can vote for him.

I don't. I've cancelled my membership. Along with many others I might add.

Not yet caught up, however: This lengthy thread is really an attempt by all of us here.... to make sense of how this change could have come about.

Is anyone any clearer? Thanks to all of you I've learned a lot. My theory is that the rise of the Left's obsession with all things Muslim and its concomitant antisemitism is a) a ploy to gain the Muslim vote and b) a clear example of the victimhood hierarchy and victim value index (they are different, right? I'm afraid I suffer brain saturation when I read too much in the middle of the night).

I'm becoming increasingly frustrated by the deafening silence from my Leftie friends on Facebook (I don't get out much with having recently had a baby so I conduct all my ranting on fb). I know, I know I shouldn't expect self-flagellating contrition, but for pity's sake..the silence! The resolute refusal to acknowledge even the sad and sorry articles I've been sharing from here. I'm so angry and afraid and shocked and nobody is interested; no-one wants to engage. Why?

Ask yourself why Jewrymember? The oldest hatred.......

You know exactly why jewrymember some causes are just more fashionable than others...

Really jewrymember? Isn't that akin to "muslims in this country don't do enough to condemn terrorist acts"? Why should every LP member (or more generally leftie) have to immediately come out and say "I condemn this"? I don't know your facebook friends BUT if they are real friends your starting point will be "I assume they condemn this until proven otherwise". If they are facebook acquaintances, and you are starting from the point of "I assume they support anti-Semitism until they tell me otherwise", well, really, should you still be connected to them?

Because no-one really believes that the LP is rife with antisemitism. It simply is not.

For those of you pondering the question, who do we vote for now? Here is one answer:

'To all those so blinded by the old dogma of the past on radio and TV, how can you not see what has happened that you continue to support the racist fascist ex Labour Party? Are you so scared to look the fool now the light has shone on what you once believed in to reveal a rotten to the core, overrun extremist bunch of nut jobs? It's time ... We all make mistakes; Labour changed so must you. ....vote UKIP. I know it hurts but they are for independant self rule and the people it's liblabcon who have let us the people down so now we must grow up and make some new choices....'

(Found that in the comments section of the Burchill article).

Because no-one really believes that the LP is rife with antisemitism. It simply is not.

Based on what? Your guess? An assumption? A feeling?

As i said on the other thread, I worked in politics for 15 years. I went to 11 labour party conferences. I worked closely with MPs from all parties. I know three jewish MPs personally. I realised pretty early in my career that there was a problem on the left with antisemitism. Its been something of a open secret. I'm pleased it's out in the open. Deny it if you want, but I am actually pretty well placed to have a genuine insight into this.

That's a fair point, unexp, however I have just shamelessly demanded to know (on fb) whether any of my Labour-supporting friends will be reconsidering their position now and so far I've had two replies:

'Nope, I've been too busy to take much notice of who said what. - this from my liberal black friend who is engaged to a Turkish muslim and lives in Richmond.

'I still prefer labour to the tories tbh. Can't stand the tories. I avoid most of the media though as its all so bias.' - another middle-class friend who can't be arsed - quite simply does not care enough - to read academic articles by respected historians and journalists that I have posted.

That was precisely the reason for my question Jewry. I believe that the LP lost the last election to UKIP not the conservatives. I also believe that if there is an issue within the LP now is the time to vote for councillors you know and trust to act to sort it out. In local elections I happily vote for my councillor because I meet and talk to him in the street and I know what he thinks as an individual.

Yes, based on 50 years of being in and around the LP., the hard left and the soft left

Forkhandles, I have been feeling a bit sorry for you lately and considered asking fellow posters to ease up on you with their mockery of your alleged credentials. However your last post is final proof that you are either a) a goady fucker b) thick as pig shit or c) blinded by your Abbot-esque lust for Corbyn and his fellow antisemites. Either way, you just don't get it and I'm finished pitying you.

...and I Wang to thank travellinglemon, for telling us of her experience. I believe her, and I'm not interested in meters hunches from the bruised Left that there really isn't a problem. Just fuck off.

Oh bloody hell. 'wang' should be want and 'meters' should read mere.

"lust for Corbyn and his fellow anti-Semites" - I therefore assume you have evidence that Jeremy Corbyn is anti-Semitic, which you can furnish to those reading? Otherwise, that is a slanderous allegation isn't it Jewry?

howabout - I agree with you. I don't understand why on a local level the LP isn't out fighting UKIP rather than the tories, particularly in deprived areas. The only slight tweak is that I think the LP lost the last election to UKIP and the SNP. After all, the Labour vote didn't collapse in England, but it did in Scotland.

Agreed unexpsoc and I am in Scotland. The thing is that the LP lost to the SNP because of the toxicity of the charge that Blair and co spent all their time implementing Tory policy without even the guiding moral judgement of the average right wing Tory in order to be electable at any cost. From a Scottish perspective the PLP opposition to JC looks like more of the same.

Can I just say to newbies on this thread, welcome! It's a big ask, but if you could read any of the posts on the previous 1000-post thread you will find responses to many of the points you raised here. It would help us avoid having to repeat loads of stuff already said.

eg Bourdic's link to an article on Finkelstein, the American behind the Shah tweet that caused all the problems, on the page before here. A fellow poster (Ricardian?) detailed precisely how and why no--one should be regarding Finkelstein as a serious scholar previously. (Will find the post when I have time.)

It's really good to have new people here, and look forward to your thoughts. As a good starting point on this thread, I recommend anyone claiming the current Labour Party has no problem with racism to start with lisalisa's posts here. If you can still hold that view after reading her posts, then you're probably missing a bit of your brain. Or your conscience.

grinkle - not sure your "argument from authority" (ie Lisalisa knows best) really helps with the thread. I am one of those newbies, and to be really upfront, open and honest I am a left winger who has joined Labour recently. But I think the areas of discussion are:

Are there anti-Semitic people in the Labour Party?

Do they hold sway over the Labour Party / left wing more generally?

Does it therefore follow that the Labour Party has a problem with anti-Semitism?

If so, is it doing enough? If not, is it doing enough about individual members?

If not, is there another reason for the left wing / Labour party being painted as anti-Semitic?

Should this racism (cos lets be fair, that's exactly what being anti-Semitic is) and the issues it causes be compared to problems other parties / wings might have or dealt with in a vacuum?

Answering one of those questions for newbies as a fait accompli doesn't seem to follow logically from any of the arguments directly.

grinkle - it's really hard to keep up ( even when you've been involved from the beginning of the thread) . There is such a range of opinions and sources on here of varying degrees of validity and varying experiences. I'm well aware that my experiences are partial and limited and my views influenced by my upbringing. I'm sure that if I'd remained living in the North, my views today might be, would be, different. But I am finding it hard to buy into the idea that there is wide spread anti semitism in the Labour Party. But I don't know because I haven't been a member for years. I do accept that there is anti semitism across British society mostly expressed in a low level sort of way. I do hear much more hatred of Muslims in particular expressed in a very virulent way. I can't ignore the agendas of certain factions in the Labour Party who want Corbyn gone and I can't ignore certain factions in the Jewish community who never criticise any of the actions of Israel and therefore also want Corbyn gone. It's all incredibly complex. Which is why Jewry, if I were one of your Labour supporting friends on FB I wouldn't express an opinion. I'm know people use FB very differently but I think a forum like this is better for debate or else face to face with my friends.