Labour and Antisemitism (Part II)

[JewryMember]

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grinkle Ilyas Aziz's postings went far beyond that one about 1948. The one with the graphic about "drinking Gaza blood" is pretty the blood libel.

OK. go to the public Twitter account of Lawrence Freedman
@LawDavF
Emeritus Professor of War Studies King's College London.

He asked Evans for his response and retweeted it on 1 May. Yes, the grammatical error was mine. Tis hard typing on a phone.

The Mail didn't mention that one, Chillie - do you have a link?

That sounds quite impressively offensive and stupid.

In that case, I revise my previous comment and I'd get rid of 2 out of 3.

I'd still say you should be allowed to compare anyone to a Nazi, or Israel to the Nazis, without being sacked - the punishment should be that you default lose the argument, a la Godwin's law.

I mean, you can't ban metaphors, even rude and cliched ones.

But you could reasonably insist that any Labour MPs or councillors who publicly compare Jews or Israel to the Nazis or Hitler are taken to Yad Vashem for a quick intro to what the terms they are using actually mean. And that they're not just the equivalent of 'really bad'.

Link is here grinkle.

On reflection I possibly agree with you with reservations about the third one - I recognise my initial reaction (that it was right he was suspended) was probably coloured by the sheer scale of antisemitic attitudes revealed in the last week rather than the postings in isolation.

Er...forkhandles. Thanks for the link...which proves beyond doubt that I was right and you were wrong. The link here: twitter.com/LawDavF/status/726752556559507456 states that:

"Brenner is not a serious historian... None of this means that "Hitler was a Zionist". ... Hitler did not "go mad" during the war."

Basically, he categorically states that everything Ken said was bollocks.

Are you sure that you're a Professor of History at a leading university?? hmm]

But I was wrong in one way! It turns out you were right, Ricardian, and RJ Evans does have a twitter account!

So sorry for the ageism.

Chillie at that link!

No, no second chances or ifs or maybes for that guy.

Think you are twisting it Grinkle. I did not say that Evans supports Brenner, nor that he thinks what KL did was right. But he states that he does not think the claim of collaboration between Zionists and Nazis to be an anti-semitic one, and that is surely what is at stake. Your implication was that Evans would be miles away from being able to make that statement.
It is certain that you are no Professor anyway. I, despite your snarky claims, am one and yes, at a leading university. Er, what do I say...so there!.

I do find reading the mainstream media very depressing these days. I'm so not thrilled at anti-Semitism being used as a great big stick to beat the Labour Party with. I like the Labour Party. I'm a member FFS.

And it's hardly fallen out of my memory that the very same papers castigating Labour for its anti_Semitism now are exactly the same ones who gloried in articles about Ed Miliband's bacon-eating prowess and supposedly dodgy 'foreign', 'anti-Britain' father, only last year. These people are not my friends.

I don't appreciate either the right-wing media or the far left doing their best to divide-and-rule Britain's ethnic minorities. Most Muslims and Jews get on just fine, thank you. Stop trying to pretend they don't.

forkhandles, I have never claimed to be a Professor anywhere.

Anyone who wants to can read the link I posted and see you're talking bollocks.

This argument is silly and I don't really want to get into a panto debate, but really, you're no Professor.

Useful link on the twitterfeed you sent me to, forkhandles:

hurryupharry.org/2016/05/01/ken-livingstone-lenni-brenner-and-falsified-evidence/ - explains exactly why Ken's source was talking (highly selective) bollocks.

Yes grinkle, we're dismantling anti-Semites over at HP. Leave pandering to anti-Semites to the "professor" and come and join the decent left.

Can I just say, there's such a thing as context. I don't really want to get involved in an argument on here because, well I find it depressing. But in a way, it hardly matters whether what Ken said could be twisted to be historically accurate. It's the context. He brought up Hitler as bully tactics. He's done it before. He wasn't making an historical point. He wasn't in a debate about Nazi Germany or even Israel. He wanted to make the Jews listening feel intimidated and to garner support from the left by using the words 'Hitler' and 'Zionist' together.

I'll say it again. I have met Ken Livingstone before. And members of his team when he was mayor. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he is an antisemite and there never really has been.

And sorry, to save anyone else the trouble and put this idea to bed one and for all, forkhandles, RJ Evans explicitly stated that what Ken said WAS anti-Semitic.

His words are:

"Brenner is not a serious historian. His works are anti-Zionist polemics. There is nothing anti-Semitic or racist about claiming Zionists collaborated with the Nazis, however (it's just the language that Ken used)."

This makes it absolutely clear that he thought Ken's language was anti-Semitic/racist. So don't try and pretend a highly reputed historian was defending Ken. No decent historian anywhere has done that. Only Holocaust revisionists. So no surprise there.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he is an antisemite and there never really has been.

As Miles Jupp said on The News Quiz this week, "Ken says that anti-Semitic attacks fell when he was mayor, probably because he was busy".

I would rather eat my own eyeballs than hang out at Harry's Place!

Ricardian I listened to that too

Lemon - depressing, but not at all surprising. Given the concentration camp guard comment - don't see how anyone could come out with that and fail to apologise unless they were an anti-Semite. TBH, I strongly suspect Corbyn is too (and it seems to run in the family, given the recent stuff about his brother). Corbyn generally comes across to me as a lot less 'nice' than his fans claim. But maybe I'm being overly-suspicious here, I don't know.

Ricardo.

forkhandles - aren't you bored now? Isn't it your bedtime?

I have a perhaps interesting perspective on this as an Orthodox Jew and the daughter of a lifelong labour supporter and labour MP back in early 80's. Back in those days there really wasn't anti Semitism . We hosted in our house many of the late and greats of that era and I grew up on a diet of socialism as well as charity , helping fellow man both of which are principles of Judaism . Kem living stone , tony Benn and Arthur scar gill during the miners strike have all been in my childhood home and were completely at ease with our Jewishness and our support for and love of Israel ( which my father didn't and had no need to hide). My father worked the kibbutz orchards and helped build the land of israel clearing swamps as a young idealistic teenager - none of this was disguised or frowned upon . My father served as an MP and afterwards spent the majority of his life as a diehard labour supporter - I inherited that too from him
And always voted labour . I could never have done anything else. Slowly , very slowly we watched that change . My father began reporting at constituency meetings that the easy cameradie seemed to have become stilted and certainly his state as a known supporter of Israel was suddenly a source of derision and isolation. He then overheard very bad remarks about his nose , his bank accounts( we were a poor family - my father stood in a factory making garments all his life and at one point we were so poor we lived on baked beans tins ) and other things pertaining to his religion . He confronted those individuals and complained to the local constituency chairman but no disciplinary action was taken . My parents were particularly close with two couples in the party and considered them close family friends. At a dinner party towards the end of my fathers association with the Party , the woman of the couple made some snide remarks about Jews and my father stood up and asked her to retract it immediately . She wouldn't do so and eventually let off full steam exactly what her feelings were about Jewish people. My parents left almost in tears and very choked up . The lady left the Party shortly after and is now a very well known Liberal and anti Semite. The other couple my parents broke off contact with after the woman ( also the politician ) expressed some dubious views and my mother had a full scale row with her .

For the first time ever before he died my father instructed me to vote Tory and said he would too. I couldn't at that time but after witnessing on a local level here where I live now anti Semitism from our labour councillors I too voted Tory. A very sad day as I still consider myself at heart a socialist . I watch what is happening now with horror and a sickening feeling . What is happening to our country where these things are even an issue and a topic of discussion ? This is not the England I grew up in . Sad to say but it is not an England in which I wish my children to raise families and settle either . Far too risky .

lisalisa - so sorry and yes, also sickened, to hear of your experiences.

Think you are twisting it Grinkle. I did not say that Evans supports Brenner, nor that he thinks what KL did was right.

This is the same Brenner you were holding up as the historian of note. Others were 'rather second rate?' Have you found any 'first rate' ones that actually, fully support him?

He has an agenda, you have an agenda. And no, I have not read his grubby little book, nor will I. I will not read a book that's quoted at length on the IHR - and that's not the Institute for Historical Research, it's the other one, the one that, if you're Jewish you should be thoroughly ashamed to be associated with. You know, the one founded by a member of the BNP? And you say you're a professor of history?? And describe others calling out this version of history unhinged?

Yeah, off to bed. I have a long trip tomorrow abroad to deliver the first of 4 guest lectures this week.

night night