Labour and Antisemitism (Part II)

[JewryMember]

Link to original thread

Just watching Daily Politics on catch-up. Hilarious watching suspended and thick councillor defending openly anti-Semitic tweets. Apparently 2014 is a long time ago.

Lectern I thought there was something? The observer human rights index? Anyway, looked at Amnesty International. Don't have a league table as such BUT said:

In the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, Israeli forces committed unlawful killings of Palestinian civilians, including children, and detained thousands of Palestinians who protested against or otherwise opposed Israel’s continuing military occupation, holding hundreds in administrative detention. Torture and other ill-treatment remained rife and were committed with impunity. The authorities continued to promote illegal settlements in the West Bank, and severely restricted Palestinians’ freedom of movement, further tightening restrictions amid an escalation of violence from October, which included attacks on Israeli civilians by Palestinians and apparent extrajudicial executions by Israeli forces. Israeli settlers in the West Bank attacked Palestinians and their property with virtual impunity. The Gaza Strip remained under an Israeli military blockade that imposed collective punishment on its inhabitants. The authorities continued to demolish Palestinian homes in the West Bank and inside Israel, particularly in Bedouin villages in the Negev/Naqab region, forcibly evicting their residents. They also detained and deported thousands of African asylum-seekers, and imprisoned Israeli conscientious objectors.

*I personally believe that Israel as a state gets away with far more than any other country does in international opinion. It is protected from being held to account for the behaviour they exhibit.

Ok, a quick look at the BBC news from the Middle East just this one week. It's probably a fairly quiet week, but hey.,,

• Iranian female prisoner subjected to Virginity tests.

• Egyptian journalist strikes - free speech suppressed - this is related to the murder of 12 tourists by Egyptian forces last year.

• Uproar in the Iraqi Parliament - related to the massacres of thousands of Sunni Muslims (sorry not sure of details, in 2006/7)

• Armenia occupies Azerbaijani lands. 30 dead.

• Oh and Russia continues bombing of Syria: approx 200 dead this week.

Genuinely, you feel Israel gets away with far more than any other state? Have you seen "criticism" - condemnation - boycott - threatened destruction of any of these countries anywhere?

I haven't.

I believe Saudi Arabia and Turkey are getting away with violating a wide range of horrific and systematic human rights breaches I'm also sorry this sounds like whataboutery. To clarify my position, any human rights abuse is wrong and I would like it if Israel, with or without international support would please sort out their dire and complex situation soonest. But the history and politics are complicated and neighbouring countries have indeed attacked Israel in the past and many of the these countries hate Israel enough to wish it nuked. Hamas as a terror organisation are a nasty bunch who fight dirty and have little regard for their own population. Neither 'side' is doing too well in finding long-term solutions to secure peace and prosperity. Saying this, hatred of Jews, as opposed to rational objection to Israel's expansion and treatment of some Palestinians, is implicit in a lot of so-called 'criticism' about Israel. It's easy to detect anti-Semitism in the 'tone' and choice of words; it goes beyond political opinion and is often pure contempt and loathing. I hate it when people dress these emotions up as 'objective criticism'. So hypocritical.

I agree with other posters who suggested the British left-wing are obsessed with Israel but don't give a flying shit about Kurds, Christians in Pakistan or Saudi, and so on.

helmetbymidnight - I think I have answered that point. My wording was clumsy and I am happy to admit wrong. Lot's of other countries are equally guilty of heinous crimes and human rights abuses.

However, your argument against me saying that Israel is protected from being held to account is to show stories from a western state-owned news website which highlights what other countries are doing but doesn't mention ANYTHING Israel is doing? That would support my argument, wouldn't it?

We need to fight hard to keep a free press. My biggest concern in today's papers is the Tories' plan to revise laws on free speech. Even if people express views I don't like I would rather they had the freedom to make their points otherwise ife shut down everyone we dislike when it comes out turn to say something we want to but others disagree with there will be no one to defend our right to make comments.

*it goes beyond political opinion and is often pure contempt and loathing.

I'd like to add that I have never noticed anybody on the left express their support of e.g. persecuted Christians in Muslim countries or the Kurds by resorting to language conveying their deep seated disgust and hatred of the persecutors, for example Muslim Pakistanis or Muslim Turks. There just isn't the same focus on the persecutors' ethnicity and religion if any criticism is expressed at all, which is often not.

I don't know this but do people supporting Palestinians by proposing economic sanctions, generally speak out loud in favour of boycotting Turkey for killing Kurds for example? If not, why is this? Double standards?

There was (for once!) nothing about Israel in my source site (bbc) - that Is true!

I don't like what's happened to Israel - or what's happened to the Palestinians of course. However, I have no doubt that the lefts loathing of Israel is not on a humanitarian basis. Otherwise they would be shouting about all these countries with humanitarian issues too. And they simply are not.

"I don't like what's happened to Israel - or what's happened to the Palestinians of course. However, I have no doubt that the lefts loathing of Israel is not on a humanitarian basis. Otherwise they would be shouting about all these countries with humanitarian issues too. And they simply are not."

It's weird, but certainly on the few occasions I have discussed this (not that often, I don't know that much about it) it seems to be more tied in to the fact the US support Israel rather than anything else (in their view). It's almost like (to steal a quote from Iran) it's OK to hate Israel because they are the agents of The Great Satan. Really odd.

Israel has a much better democracy than most of the Middle East as we all know.
None of thes issues are easy. The Kurds have always wanted a homeland although why people want this kind of thing today is puzzling. I don't go around wanting to live only with people like I am and we are all mixed up here in London as people of all kinds without any problem. We don't even in England divide ourselves into Catholics and Protestants any more or only want to be with Ango Saxons rather than the awful invading Normans.

I don't believe most Labour supporters nor even Ken Livingstone are anti semitic. They are fairly keen on equality for everyone and I am happy to write that even though I'm a Conservative supporter.

I am much more worried about creeping censorhip in the UK, safe spaces, the sack if you research difference between male and female brains at university, our attitude that people's feelings must be protected at all costs rather than arguing for a right to offend others. Of course people should try to be polite and none of us should accept any discrimination on grounds or religion or sex and race.

Do we know if we have more anti Muslim than anti Jewish crimes in the UK at present? I haven't looked it up.

I can understand a hierarchy of the oppressed but that should never mean we say no point objecting to discrimination against successful white females in the City of London because badly paid black cleaners have a much harder time. We should support fairness for all.

Well, now the Social Jusice Warriprs think that cockwomble Oxford students humiliating minimum wage waitresses is a radical act, who can say what will happen next?

The Kurds have always wanted a homeland although why people want this kind of thing today is puzzling

It's probably due to the fact that since as a body of people they've been split up and put under the control of different countries, some of them having appalling regimes, they've looked at their experience of being murdered in their thousands and thought they might be safer if they could have a homeland they could control and defend. Looking at their history they do have a point.

"Israel has a much better democracy than most of the Middle East as we all know." Said no Palestinian, ever.

That is a cheap shot and I know I will get flamed for it but it seemed the easiest way to make my point.I think it is a big claim with obvious reasons to challenge it.

Someone else mentioned a hierarchy of oppressed or something similar, but I have not heard of it before.

I also believe- like grinkle I think - that the Labour Party is not of itself , inherently and irredeemably antisemitic simply because my family have such a long association with it and its previous leaders and were very comfortable and happy with it and in it as visible proud Jews. What has happened ? It is now undeniably a different place and home to MPs of questionable quality and background ( contrast for example the pure politics of Wedgie Benn as opposed to a disagreeable person like Naz Shah. ) the Party seems to have been hijacked or steered from within into a very different place

Laura - thanks for your post and especially what you said about Labour supporters. I'm a Labour supporter but not a member. I left the LP because of Blair so I'm definitely on the left. It's really hard for me to see left as equating with being anti- Semitic. I've always associated that with the right ( including the right wing of the Conservatives) . I suppose it's because in my post war socialist childhood, I was told about the support for Hitler amongst the British Establishment (including of course Edward 8) and the generally accepted anti semitism of that time. It was also the left who fought fascism in Spain and its support for Hitler - not the right. I lived in both Hull and Leeds ( both cities with Jewish communities) and was aware of a sort of 'everyday anti semitism' masquerading as 'jokes'. This seemed randomly distributed across the political spectrum so far as I can tell. However, in the 80s in both Suurey and the affluent areas of Leeds, I knew of two golf clubs that operated a closet no Jews membership rule and it's fair to say that the members of both clubs were much more Conservative than Labour. There was also the Mondsy Club which IDS to his credit sorted out in 2001. So I suppose I'm trying to say that anti semitism is there at the extremes of left and right and is not the preserve of the left. As for my views on Israel, I'm a member of AI and accept completely their quote above. Over my life, like a lot of people on the left, I've criticised many countries - I got laughed at in the 70s when I wouldn't holiday in Spain, Portugal and Greece and have been abused for protesting sgsinst South Africa. Through AI I've supported campaigns in favour of the Kurds, persecuted Christians etc. I just feel there's a lot of blinkered views at the moment re the right and anti semitism and its hard not to see some political motivations behind the emphasis on the LP. And fwiw, 2014 is significant because of Gaza and I believe that what Israel did there was war crime ( which doesn't mean that I think they are the only guilty ones)

lisalisa if we're complaining a list of MPs of questionable quality I'd like to throw BJ and ZG into the mix - unless of couse politically motivated racism is acceptable on the right?

This well worth the read.

www.opendemocracy.net/uk/jamie-stern-weiner-norman-finkelstein/american-jewish-scholar-behind-labour-s-antisemitism-scanda

Who are they Bourdic ? Full names please . Why would you imagine racism is ok on the right of the political spectrum ? Anti Semitism ( that this thread is discussing ) appears on the right too and is not acceptable wherever it is. Years ago it was much , much more prevalent and apparent on the right and the left was a safe comfortable home . I'm sure it still exists on the right ( by which I mean the middleish right as of course it exists in the extreme right ) but in recent years it is the left who are much more of a pressing problem

I can't believe that anyone following politics at the moment doesn't know who ZG and BJ is nor of their racist comments. And yes, I know this thread is about anti semitism but it's hard to avoid a bit of whataboutery when there is so much high minded criticism of labour

Zac Goldsmith and Boris Johnson?

Ah thanks ! Why do you think they are both racist ?

Yes the thread is about anti Semitism and the Labour Party . Not sure why you feel the need to bring up other politicians or indulge in whataboutery as you put it. That doesn't help other than to distract and muddy the waters

I have to say I hate the whataboutery arguements! I think we should always contextualise and compare and contrast.

As for there being anti Semitism in the Tory party - yeah there is- however labour positions itself as the party of fairness and equality. We expect racists in, say ukip, we don't in labour...

Very true helmet . I am a very sore ex supporter of Labour . If things changed I would be back in . It's such a shame

Who to vote for if not Labour and you are an ex supporter?