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Labour and Antisemitism (Part II)

241 replies

JewryMember · 02/05/2016 00:13

Link to original thread

OP posts:
forkhandles4candles · 02/05/2016 23:27

before I go...I do think Brenner's book is of note, or notable. It put some stuff out there that few had discussed prior to then.

grinkle · 03/05/2016 08:50

I'm sure your cats, or fellow pupils, will appreciate your 'lectures', forkhandles.

You're as much a lecturer as I am an airline pilot, and as much a Jew as I am a Jehovah's witness.

MrsGradyOldLady · 03/05/2016 10:01

lisa that's so shocking. I'm 43 and since I was old enough to vote have voted labour and up until Friday I was a member of the labour party. I had no idea anti semitism really existed in this country anymore (other than within extremist groups like EDL). Your poor parents to be treat like that after all they'd done for the party.

grinkle · 03/05/2016 10:23

A typically forthright article from Julie Burchill on the subject:

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/julie-burchill-labour-party-jew-7877106

I thought this bit was interesting:

"The long, lonely road here started with the perfectly ­reasonable desire to be anti-racist and ended up poisoned by what I call Paint-Chart Politics.

PCP is the equally illogical inversion of conventional racism – in this case, the furthest-from-white is always right.

And, hence, the Labour Party has found itself supporting a sexist, homophobic, nihilist death cult – Islamism – just because the majority of those who practice it are dark skinned and the majority of Jews white."

Ricardian · 03/05/2016 10:25

other than within extremist groups like EDL

Sorry, are you drawing a distinction between Livingstone and the EDL? The trope that the Nazis and "Zionists" collaborated in the holocaust which Hitler never wanted, so it was was therefore engineered to garner sympathy for Jews, is straight out of the far-right. Backing it up with shit tracts from fringe charlatans which the reader is too stupid and ill-educated to realise aren't reliable because it aligns with their racist worldview is also straight from the far-rightplaybook.

The EDL would be comfortable with that opinion. Ken Livingstone is comfortable with that opinion. They two pieces of shit from the same sewer. I hope the people that voted for Livingstone over the years are happy to know they have voted for a racist, and I hope he goes off to join the BNP where he belongs.

MrsGradyOldLady · 03/05/2016 10:39

No I'm not drawing a distinction between KL and The EDL at all - quite the reverse in fact. What I'm shocked about is that the people I've always voted for are (not so secretly ) anti semitic. I should have realised before - with JC and KL being "friends with Hamas" but I don't read enough about politics so I've been in a bit of a bubble.

MrsGradyOldLady · 03/05/2016 10:43

And yes I do feel like I've voted for a racist as I also voted for Corbyn as leader.

I have cancelled my membership (for what it's worth ) and told them the reasonsame why.

Ricardian · 03/05/2016 10:59

And yes I do feel like I've voted for a racist as I also voted for Corbyn as leader.

I'm sorry, it's hard to have much sympathy. Corbyn has made no secret of his support for anti-Semites, and his claim to be "anti-racist" doesn't extend to actually opposing racism. It's a posture, not a position.

grinkle · 03/05/2016 11:03

MrsGrady - is is good to see how the reasonable and intelligent are rallying round over this, leaving the unthinking or the racist clearly exposed for what they are. I wasn't sure about Corbyn either (and I'm Jewish) but for me, the first signs that things were not as they should be was when highly intelligent, long-term supporters of the left whom I respected started deserting the party in recent months - everyone from Robert Webb to Maureen Lipman. So don't feel bad about being taken in - there's no reason anyone should have expected this from the left. No reason at all. This lengthy thread is really an attempt by all of us here (trolls excepted) to make sense of how this change could have come about. It is (to me, anyway) almost incomprehensible.

I've been reminded very strongly through all that's been happening of the distinction between those who supported the Nazis and those who didn't, as described by Sebastian Haffner in his superb book on the rise of the Nazis, Defying Hitler - which I recommend everyone to read if they truly want to understand that era (and yes, I am aware I am breaking my own rule on not invoking Godwin's Law here, and desperately wish that that period of time did not present helpful parallels to where we are now).

Haffner describes very clearly how some people are driven by loss and failure into hatred and scapegoating of others (eg Hitler), whereas others, such as himself, were able to find more constructive and self-critical ways to deal with their emotions. Well worth reading, as I said.

And thanks.

grinkle · 03/05/2016 11:06

Ricardian - I disagree with you that it would have been obvious to people uninvolved in Jewish issues. I was aware of the allegations before the leadership election, which (thankfully) did impact on who I voted for. But it's easy to understand that for those not involved in Jewish affairs that it would have been apparent. I too gave (and even still give) Corbyn the benefit of the doubt. OK, my credulity is being stretched here, but still, I prefer to believe the best of people).

grinkle · 03/05/2016 11:07

Should read "it's easy to understand that for those not involved in Jewish affairs that it would not have been apparent."

lisalisa · 03/05/2016 11:11

MrsGradyOldLady I would so have agreed with you years ago . I only know that now when I take my boys into central London they do not wear head coverings identifiable with the Jewish religion - just generic caps . My children's schools have security guards ( schools ffs !) and police patrol the streets during Jewish festivals here .

As for my father , yes you are right. A whole life given to socialist principles and the Labour Party only to see it held up to him for ridicule , derision and scorn as he realized that the Party he'd known and loved was a very different uglier animal

MrsGradyOldLady · 03/05/2016 11:33

That's terrible Lisa I had no idea until I started reading threads like these.

Where I live there isn't really much of a Jewish community. Most of the immigration has come from SE Asia so there are mosques but no synagogue. I think I've only met 3 Jewish families - none of them religious, so I just wouldn't have known about these attitudes had I not read about it here.

My daughters best friend is Jewish but it's very much a secret. She said it was because she's sick of people asking her about the Holocaust when it comes up in history, but maybe there's more to it...

JewryMember · 03/05/2016 12:43

Oh I've missed lots of posts thanks to a heinous night of perpetual breastfeeding asleep Will go back & read but thought I'd share Jeremy's righteous indignance on the news right now, declaring that people in the real workd simply aren't talking about his leadership:

'They're talking about housing, they're talking about poverty, they're talking about NHS cuts, they're talking about zero hours contracts, they're talking about low wages, they're talking about a crisis of expectation for young people. It's time, quite honestly that certain members of the golden media circle got out a bit and listened to what people are saying. Asked if he thought the media were out to get him: ' What I think is the media are obsessed with this [his being a filthy antisemite, presumably] when what they should be obsessed with is the devastating crisis of inequality in our society.'

There you have it: inequality trumps antisemitism Sad

OP posts:
Ricardian · 03/05/2016 13:16

inequality trumps antisemitism

The Jews are all rich and powerful, you see, so Labour doesn't need their votes and doesn't see any need to understand their position.

www.progressonline.org.uk/2016/04/29/the-last-word-the-end-of-meaning-2/

grinkle · 03/05/2016 13:29

Ricardian - I actually found your link very positive. In that it was written by a Labour MP, and published. So there are plenty in Labour who do not share those views, and are not afraid to shout about it. There have always been political extremists and it is unfortunate (to put it mildly) that they have taken over the Labour Party.

I actually take comfort now, strangely, from reading the comments in the Mail, insofar as they probably come reasonably close to representing the ordinary British working-class person. And they are (largely) pro-Jewish (and indeed, told the Mail where to stick it last year when it tried to tar Miliband's father) and anti-anti-Semite. Some of that support will come from those who are anti-Muslim and so see Jews as being on the other side, but I think a sizeable majority are people who are not fundamentally racist but really dislike hypocrisy, and can see it in modern Labour in spades.

grinkle · 03/05/2016 13:31

The left is not lost. It just needs to clean out its closets somewhat. But if the Labour Party won't do it itself, the voters sure as hell will. The Labour Party has made the tactical error of assuming there are more Muslim voters than there are white, non-racist, non-sexist, non-homophobic voters. And I don't think there are.

grinkle · 03/05/2016 13:34

Should clarify - when I refer to Muslim voters I mean as seen through Labour strategists eyes, ie people who would vote deliberately for an anti-Semitic party on those grounds. I do not remotely think that is what Muslim voters are like en masse - unlike Labour.

JewryMember · 03/05/2016 13:35

Quite, Ricardian

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LecternSpace · 03/05/2016 13:39

I name changed but was on the first thread, (appalled by Labours closet racists). Grinkle I hope you are right. A poster upthread mentioned the increased incidence of voting fraud as postal votes in areas with a large Muslim population are above national average. How can something like this (if indeed true) be prevented, if at all? The last thing we need now is for Labour to trick their way into ballot boxes.

grinkle · 03/05/2016 13:50

Was chatting about this to my dh yesterday, who was telling me about cleaveages (no don't giggle). We need to redefine what the important cleaveages ie divides/issues are as seen from the left. Currently being anti-Israel has become almost a holy cow for some on the left, and we need to ease normal thinking back into a realisation that the true issues that define the left are its historic focus on inequality and support for working people. I do think this is still where the heart of the majority of Labour voters is and still think it's possible to win an election for the left on those grounds. But Labour will need to clear out its Augean stables first to get there.

grinkle · 03/05/2016 13:51

I can spell, honestly.

cleavages

Yah boo - never thought I'd be putting that in bold!

unexpsoc · 03/05/2016 13:52

I very recently joined the Labour Party. In fact, I also joined Momentum. I am not per se a Corbynista. I do however believe that the Labour Party should be, you know, left wing. It has been a long time since it was.

However, I have been surprised by the views of some on the very far left. I personally believe that Israel as a state gets away with far more than any other country does in international opinion. It is protected from being held to account for the behaviour they exhibit. But the vitriol some on the left have for Israel and any views that do not end with the complete destruction of that state is terrifying. I have had somebody screaming, red faced with a finger in my chest because I had the temerity to suggest a two-state solution should be something people should work towards.

The problem with the left-wing seems to be that they are driven by positions taken up by the far-left 40 years ago that you can now not challenge without being identified as "The People's Front of Judea" and ostracised.

LecternSpace · 03/05/2016 14:21

"I personally believe that Israel as a state gets away with far more than any other country does in international opinion. It is protected from being held to account for the behaviour they exhibit."

Really? I don't quite know how one would quantify this but if were talking about personal beliefs, I believe Saudi Arabia and Turkey are getting away with violating a wide range of horrific and systematic human rights breaches. Is there a UN index on countries fairing thew worst in terms of human rights abuse and persecution of minorities?

unexpsoc · 03/05/2016 14:23

"I personally believe that Israel as a state gets away with far more than any other country does in international opinion. It is protected from being held to account for the behaviour they exhibit."

It is a fair point Lectern - you are right. I should have said far more than many other countries.