Obama, concern for the UK or US?

[ProfessorPreciseaBug]

Listening to Obama, I was struck that his language seemed to be about what is good for the US not what is good for the UK. Certainly the former US treasury secretary interviewed on the Today program was very US centric.

His comment about us going to the back of the queue, (and he did say queue instead of line because he was told to) seemed to be a bit of a threat. Is he out of order?

'Of course he gave it prior thought but he likely didn't have to be told by someone to do it.'

It woudn't surprise me if one of Call Me Dave's team of advanced spinners, trained and tutored by the doctors of spin, didn't go through Obama's speech with a fine toothcomb before he delivered it so that the Establishment could be on the same page as Obama. and so that Call Me Dave knew what was coming.

*Obama can kiss my lily white arse.

Perhaps this comment was not intended to be racist, but I can tell you that in the US, when a white person says this about an African American, it is definitely perceived as racist.*

This comment was racist - of course it was and it was intended to be. Cue wide eyed surprise I didn't know that.

Agreed.

Re the queue reference, I am sure that Obama is perfectly familiar with the fact that British and American English have slightly different vocabularies, and is capable of modulating his language to suit his audience.

I mean, if a bunch of housewives can get their heads round the notion that "line" and "queue" mean the same thing, then maybe - just maybe - a man who graduated top of his Harvard class might be able to do the same thing? Even if he is black ...

And as for the idea that Boris's "half-Kenyan" reference had no race connotations - that is absolute bollocks.

Boris is an educated man who has had a long career in politics. He will absolutely have had in mind, when writing that sentence, the birther conspiracy ie the notion widely held by uneducated, white, racist Americans that Obama is a Kenyan Muslim and therefore not qualified to be US president. It would be impossible for an educated politically-aware person to write what Boris did without knowing that he was dipping his toe in very murky waters.

But he did it anyway, because he knew it would play well to the racists in the leave camp.

But being told what to do politically by Johnnie foreigner is just not on.

I'd have some sympathy for this view if many of the Leave campaign hadn't been confidently and blithely telling voters what the US (and other countries) would definitely do in the case of Brexit, with no factual basis or evidence for those claims. Obama has provided some actual information on what the US would actually do.

Alongside a wide range of EU leaders saying what they would actually do, the optimistic claims of some Brexit campaigners are starting to look a little close to the clouds. And I'm sure that's disappointing for them, but I think voters should be making choices based on facts. If one of the issues is 'what would America do', the first question is 'has anyone asked the Americans?'

Of course Obama is representing US interests.

That doesn't stop it being true.

One of the reasons we have a special relationship with the US is because we're their gateway to Europe.

If we chuck away our bargaining power in Europe we will be of less use to the US, and they will have fewer incentives to treat us favourably. And they can do that, because they are the US, and they don't play fair, they look out for themselves.

Well I meant it in a totally non racist way. Bloody hell. It's an expression I was turning on myself. Please don't turn this into something it isn't.

I am appalled at what Boris said.

I used to think he was a clever man who just appeared to be stupid. Now, I think he is just stupid. I shouldn't have been surprised but I really was. Doh.

*Obama has provided some actual information on what the US would actually do.

For the next 33 weeks that he will remain US President.

From January 2017 - somebody else, not Obama, decide who is placed where in the queue

We're not a flipping Empire any more you know, I think half the country seems to have forgotten that!

We're a small island with a government in charge that's selling off the family silver as quick as it can, and itching to do away with our human rights.

Why would we want to leave Europe and be left at the mercy of this lot?

The democracy in Europe stinks, sure, but what makes you think the democracy out would be any better? It would be worse. This government does not give a stuff about democracy!

This government are pursuing policies that they know are killing off some of the poorest and most vulnerable in our society.

Their reforms are ruled illegal and yet they carry on - they'd love to be able to get on with this stuff without Europe getting in the way.

DWP's disability benefits delays ruled 'unlawful' and 'unacceptable' by High Court

Bedroom tax 'breaches human rights of vulnerable people' - top judge

Iain Duncan Smith has pledged to appeal after a judge ruled that emergency legislation introduced over a flagship back-to-work programme is “incompatible” with European human rights laws.

I am terrified about the prospect of living in a Tory country unrestrained by Europe, I don't understand why more people are not?

One of the reasons we have a special relationship with the US is because we're their gateway to Europe.

... and to the Commonwealth.

But if the US wants to risk the £58billion of trade it does with the UK each year, then good luck to them. we of course, having Brexited would be free to make our own trading arrangements with countries that see the benefits of mutually acceptable trade

"From January 2017 - somebody else, not Obama, decide who is placed where in the queue"

Yes, and that person also will be acting in the interest of the US not the UK.

Haven't you noticed how aggressive the US is in its foreign policy? They will only give us special treatment if it suits them. If we're out of Europe we're less use to them.

I don't see how that's hard to get your head around?!

"But if the US wants to risk the £58billion of trade it does with the UK each year, then good luck to them. we of course, having Brexited would be free to make our own trading arrangements with countries that see the benefits of mutually acceptable trade"

The European countries won't want to give us favourable trade agreements, because if they do others might see leaving the EU as attractive also and the whole house of cards will come tumbling down.

They are just as likely - if not more so - to want to punish us as a warning to others not to leave.

Hot off the press: Clinton wants UK to remain in EU -

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/23/hillary-clinton-britain-should-stay-in-eu

'I am terrified about the prospect of living in a Tory country unrestrained by Europe, I don't understand why more people are not?'

Because a Tory government is only a temporary thing. Leaving the EU is forever and makes it possible to elect a sovereign government that can nationalise or give state aid to the steel industry and pass its own laws independently of the EU.

'Hot off the press: Clinton wants UK to remain in EU -'

Doesn't come as a surprise, I expect Sanders does too. Hillary is a globalist, part of the global Establishment and shares their views.

"if the US wants to risk the £58billion of trade it does with the UK each year, then good luck to them."
Seriously? Do you really think that? PMSL.
What makes you think we're in any position to call the shots?

What a jumped up little island with an overblown sense of importance we are.

UK trade counts for 2.9% of US total trade.

Not totally insignificant, but I'm sure they'd manage without us if push came to shove. Not so sure we could say the same thing.

The US however is our biggest export market, and the third for imports.

Who holds the power in this relationship?

The problem with Boris and co have right now is that by the time they've finished insulting world leaders, there won't be many people left to do business with.

Of course Obama is only there until next January, but he is likely to be succeeded by another democrat. On the off chance that a republican gets into office, it will be an isolationist who wants to rip up trade agreements, not sign new ones.

arandomename - "We're not a flipping Empire any more you know, I think half the country seems to have forgotten that!"

Yes the way the Foreign & Commonwealth are always in a frenzy about Britain's influence in the World and it leaves us weak. If we were a bit more stand offish with both the EU and US rather than so desperate to please we would have more power.

That said, the UK does still have the handy ability to monitor and if necessary sink every ship passing through the Gibraltar Straits, the English Channel, the Western Approaches and the route to the Baltic. That is well over half of World trade.

We also have various strategically located islands around the planet as well. Our American allies use these sea lanes and islands quite regularly.

We need to get more in return. Our tiny little island has a strategic power far greater than its size. I don't suppose the US wants to import its oil the long way round the Cape or send its aircraft carriers that way either. They pass without let or hindrance via Gibraltar which we control.

"Leaving the EU is forever and makes it possible to elect a sovereign government that can nationalise or give state aid to the steel industry and pass its own laws independently of the EU."

Right.

And the evidence of that happening is where, please?

Like turkeys voting for Christmas, the electorate voted the current bunch of psychopathic arsewipes. What makes you think they'll start voting in the national interest after leaving the EU?

We're not a flipping Empire any more you know, I think half the country seems to have forgotten that!

Agreed. And we don't want political union with the new EU empire either.

We're a small island with a government in charge that's selling off the family silver as quick as it can, and itching to do away with our human rights.

That's Nick Clegg's view - diminish us as a nation, ridicule and belittle us until we believe we are worthless . It's disgusting form of bullying. Human Rights are not granted by the EU.- we would sill have human rights post-Brexit.

Why would we want to leave Europe and be left at the mercy of this lot?

This lot? I suppose you mean Cameron? If so - Why do you want to support Cameron's recommendation to stay in the EU, if you don't trust Cameron?

The democracy in Europe stinks, sure, but what makes you think the democracy out would be any better?

Read Tony Benn on democracy. Sovereignty and self determination, making your own laws are what we have gone to war to restore to other countries. Democracy is the rule of the people by the people. I see democracy as a fundamental human rights - the sort you mentioned upthread.

It would be worse. This government does not give a stuff about democracy!

If you see the EU as an alternative to democratic rule in the UK, remember, pendulums swing. Your nice pink fluffy EU may one day be dominated by Fascists as Europe moves to the right. Still want to be ruled by an undemocratic fascist EU that you cannot vote out of power?

This government are pursuing policies that they know are killing off some of the poorest and most vulnerable in our society.

You are conflating the EU with the current Government.This Government will go one day when we vote it out of power. You cannot vote the EU out of power. So why do you want to follow the recommendation to stay IN, of a Government that you clearly distrust? The Government is saying stay in - because its good for them - not for you.

Their reforms are ruled illegal and yet they carry on - they'd love to be able to get on with this stuff without Europe getting in the way.

Entire populations have rejected EU Treaties - yet the EU has got its way. So why are they telling you to stay in the EU if the EU "gets in their way"?

DWP's disability benefits delays ruled 'unlawful' and 'unacceptable' by High Court

Bedroom tax 'breaches human rights of vulnerable people' - top judge
Then the ECHR will rule against the Govt when a case is brought

Iain Duncan Smith has pledged to appeal after a judge ruled that emergency legislation introduced over a flagship back-to-work programme is “incompatible” with European human rights laws.

You should be glad there is an appeals route. It allows you too to appeal against judgements.

I am terrified about the prospect of living in a Tory country unrestrained by Europe, I don't understand why more people are not?

Then you are terrified of living in a democracy that can reject failed Governments and would rather be governed by unelected dictators in Europe.

You should be terrified that, should Labour (or any other party) ever come to power, they will not be able to give you the laws you want - because just like you think the Tories hands will be tied by Europe, so will Labours.

And I stlil don't understand why someone who evidently detests the Tories is willing to support Cameron by voting for his recommendation to stay in the EU. You are prolonging your own misery as if we LEAVE the EU he will be chucked out by his party the next day.

And please don't waste time saying that Cameron will give us worse if we leave the EU because you have the opportunity to remove Cameron and the Tory Govt. You are stuck with the EU.

Look at the contradictions. Your argument just doesn't stack up.

That said, the UK does still have the handy ability to monitor and if necessary sink every ship passing through the Gibraltar Straits, the English Channel, the Western Approaches and the route to the Baltic. That is well over half of World trade.

Did you write that with a straight face? Is the leave camp threatening World War III now?!

You are seriously talking about sinking merchant ships, crewed by civilians, operating in international waters?

"Leaving the EU is forever and makes it possible to elect a sovereign government that can nationalise or give state aid to the steel industry and pass its own laws independently of the EU.

No evidence they won't do that either.

You can vote these 'arsewipes' out of office. You can never vote out the 'arsewipes' in the EU who will be ruling you .

'What makes you think they'll start voting in the national interest after leaving the EU?'

Because things will change over the next few centuries. The Tories won't be in forever. If Labour sacks the stooges and gets it s act together, they might get in, or a new UKIP/Tory splinter party might get in, we don't know. But things will change and we will vote them in and out and they will be independent of the EU and we won't need to spend £350m a week so that unelected bureaucrats can decide what to do with it. We won't need to stay in "to prop other countries up" as the Vatican spokesman suggested we should.