Obama, concern for the UK or US?

[ProfessorPreciseaBug]

Listening to Obama, I was struck that his language seemed to be about what is good for the US not what is good for the UK. Certainly the former US treasury secretary interviewed on the Today program was very US centric.

His comment about us going to the back of the queue, (and he did say queue instead of line because he was told to) seemed to be a bit of a threat. Is he out of order?

I agree completely Springing.

The EU is a pseudo-democracy. We need to leave in order to regain the real thing.

They didn't. They didn't vote for them, they were imposed on them without a General Election. It's like the Queen installing an unelected technocratic Government at the behest of the EU.

No, it's much closer to the Labour Party deciding Gordon Brown would be Prime Minister after Tony Blair.

Napolitano being elected, where HMQ isn't, so his position is more analogous to that of the governing Labour Party in 2007 than to the Queen.

They didn't. They didn't vote for them, they were imposed on them without a General Election.

Even Daniel Hannan in the DM article you linked to above admits “It’s true these regime changes were carried out within the letter of the constitution, in the sense that most MPs have given their support to the new administrations.”

"What Obama effect? Polls find British voters are REJECTING the US President's plea to stay in the EU as the Brexit camp moves into the lead in major blow for Cameron"

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3563341/What-Obama-effect-poll-President-s-dramatic-intervention-visit-shows-Brexit-camp-moved-lead-EU-referendum-campaign.html

"Poll also finds Nigel Farage is more trusted than David Cameron on the EU"

I am not surprised by the last quote.

After watching Cameron "negotiate" with Juncker and put forward a case for Remain, I now understand why everyone calls him "Dodgy Dave".

Dave does keep banging on about the UK being better off in a reformed Europe...
What EU reforms he actually managed to deliver at his summit... as opposed to changes in the relationship between the UK znd EU?

Answers on a postcard please... (hint, the BeeB had a website with the actual results of the summit... It is worth taking a careful look and seeing how much actual reform of Europe he managed to achieve)

The thinking in EU circles now seems to be that the EU would want a quick "divorce" - ie that it would refuse an extension to the 2 year exit negotiation period - and that any negotiation of a new trade relationship would have to wait until after brexit had been formally negotiated. This would presumably leave the UK trading with the EU on WTO terms (the most damaging of the three scenarios envisaged in the recent Treasury report) for a minimum period of several years.

This would seem to make a US trade deal all the more vital. I simply don't understand the invective heaped on Obama. What is the objective of making racist slurs against the president of a country with which you may need to negotiate favourable trade terms in the near future? What on earth was Boris thinking? Obama may not be around, but any rational person would at least consider that his successor may well be another democrat.

in.reuters.com/article/britain-eu-divorce-idINKCN0XP2IG

What EU reforms he actually managed to deliver at his summit... as opposed to changes in the relationship between the UK znd EU?

False premise. The UK is part of the EU. Therefore any change to the 'relationship' and status of the UK within the EU represents reform of the EU.

Exemption for any county from ever closer union is a pretty significant change to the essential ethos of the EU. Alongside domestic referenda on new treaties it's a pretty good position for the UK. Exemption from federalism (which is sensible alongside exemption from fiscal union) but retaining current advantages.

Yes - it strikes me that UK influence in the EU is grossly underestimated in some quarters. The UK benefits from special treatment and opt outs on a number of counts, and this is clearly due to its position as probably the second most influential EU member after Germany (which is the EU's largest economy and far and away the biggest net contributor to the EU budget).

It is also evident in the fact that, on a net per capita basis, the UK is around the seventh or eighth largest contributor, despite its large economy and relatively positive growth trajectory (compared to larger European contributors) over the last few years. This suggests that far from lacking influence, the UK is actually punching above its weight.

If influence has waned in recent years (I'm not sure it has, but for argument's sake...) then, this may relate to the decision of the Tory party and its MEPs to align themselves with a mixed bag of small nationalist European parties, rather than the main centre-right grouping.

If influence has waned in recent years (I'm not sure it has, but for argument's sake...) then, this may relate to the decision of the Tory party and its MEPs to align themselves with a mixed bag of small nationalist European parties, rather than the main centre-right grouping.

Actually any lack of UK influence is more likely to be down to the 24 UKIP MEPs who have poor committee & voting attendance records. Apparently as a point of principle, UKIP doesn't vote in favour of the EU doing things on our behalf. They voted against an EU move that could have helped protect the steel industry from cheap Chinese imports.

Excellent point STIDW

Polls find British voters are REJECTING the US President's plea to stay in the EU as the Brexit camp moves into the lead in major blow for Cameron

What polls exactly? Poll of polls put Remain ahead off Leave at 53% & 47% respectively.

whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls/

John Curtis the man behind the only poll that predicted the general election result correctly said it was a "relatively encouraging week for Remain in the polls."

whatukthinks.org/eu/a-good-week-for-remain/

Sky News Poll

Obama makes people more likely to LEAVE

Almost one in three (29%) now say they are less likely to vote Remain as a result of the US President’s support for Britain’s EU membership, up 12 percentage points since last Thursday – and now a higher proportion than the 22% who say Mr Obama makes them more likely to vote Remain

news.sky.com/story/1684878/sky-poll-obamas-eu-warning-counterproductive

More Obama please.

Spring the very fact that people's votes are influenced by what Obama said just proves why referenda are the dumbest type of decision making - I actually think it's an abdication of responsibility by the Government

'I actually think it's an abdication of responsibility by the Government'

On major issues, the government has to resort to referenda for legitimacy because people want a voice and don't trust their representatives to reflect the real will of the people.

The Establishment doesn't vote the same way as the people. All the bigwigs, all the horses and all the King's men need the approval of the people for really major issues such as Scottish independence or EU independence etc

Bourdic
Spring the very fact that people's votes are influenced by what Obama said just proves why referenda are the dumbest type of decision making - I actually think it's an abdication of responsibility by the Government

The Government never gives people a referendum on things that are really important. You won't get a referendum asking 'Should we nuke Russia' etc.

They know (and have said) that the UK would be OK outside the EU. Cameron even said he would consider leaving the EU if he didn't get his 'special deal'. You don't even consider leaving things that are really important.

The EU is not important. The EEA is important. The EU is just one big confidence trick that 168 countries in the world are not being subjected to.

I think when it comes to sovereignty, the government has to ask the people instead of stitching it up among the stooges, because it is about how we are governed. We live in a democracy, not a dictatorship of stooges, and therefore how we are governed has to be decided by the people and not the stooges.

After we elect a government, they can then govern according to our constitutional system without asking us apart from every 5 years, but if they want to make major changes of sovereignty and how we are governed, then they have to ask us in order to maintain legitimacy of governance.

Can't agree Claig. Many constitutional changes have been done by the Government without consulting all its people. Look at the Scottish referendum, nobody living in NI, Wales or England had a say in that proposed constitutional change even though it affected the whole of the UK and even if you had been born in Scotland you were still disenfranchised if not actually living there. Whereas a Polish plumber living in Glasgow could vote on the UK's constitiutional future.

Yes, they can decide on who gets to vote etc to some extent to swing things in their favour but they can't disenfranchise everyone on an issue like that and just decide it among the 650 MPs.

They can make constutional changes like the House of Lords etc without asking us, but I am not sure they could say that we were going to be the 52nd state of the United States without putting it to the people in an referendum first, and the same aplies to when we joined the EU. Such changes in governance are just too big to be made by 650, some of whom are stooges, and has to go back to the people to decide because the EU, for example, sets so many of our laws and therefore removes the sovereignty of the people and hands it to a body that is not part of our nation.

If this is what he will put us at the back of the queue then yes, please!

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ttip-leak-could-spell-the-end-of-controversial-trade-deal-say-campaigners-a7009896.html

Well said Chardonnay

So, are the EU willing to throw TTIP under the bus so that we stay IN?

Wow!

TTIP is one of the main reasons for Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Citigroup, the hedge funds, big corporations to want us to REMAIN in the EU so they can bleed us dry by sucking at the EU teat.

They will be disappointed.

Obama has admitted in his farewell speech to the Washington Press correspondents mtg that people are now looking over his shoulder for someone important to talk to 'cos he is yesterday's man.
So ridiculous giving him airtime - he is over.
Someone today said the question he should have been asked is - ok, back of he q, but will you be actively supporting a free trade deal with the UK Mr P? And watch him squirm.

And the really funny thing is that

-- we don't even have a trade agreement with America at the moment, let alone one in the future

We manage fine right now.

We manage fine when we Brexit.

MrsGuy - Obsma wasn't 'admitting' anything - it's a fact of US political life that a president towards the end of his second term is perceived differently - of course he is. But his views are worth airtime simply because of the experience behind them.