Labour and anti-semitism

[LeLaluifleur]

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

So when you said "Anti-zionism is more after than not intimately intertwined with anti-semitism,"..............?

Rain, I liked the Atlantic article, thank you for posting the link. 'Voltaire hated the Jews for inventing Christianity.' I would not be in the least surprised if this belief was driving the anti-Zionist liberal Mumsnet 'philosophers' on this thread.

"The legitimacy of anti-Zionist views has been disputed to the present day, including the more recent and disputed relationship between anti-Zionism and antisemitism.[5] Other views regarding the various forms of anti-Zionism have also been discussed and debated."

It's not a paper, just wiki but gives a high level idea of the debate and issues around antizionism. Are you not ware of the potential and actual overlaps Bert?

Or, possibly, could we be driven by Israeli government policy?

we? Who?

The idea that anti-semitism and anti-Zionism are equivalent is simply lazy debating. They may well cohabit in some circles - there is no denying that. But they don't necessarily go together. And Zionism also has its own problem with racism.

On the question of Palestinians having or not having rights, I would be genuinely interested to hear what rights Zionists think that Palestinians should have, and in what circumstances those rights can be restricted or removed. In what way are their rights fundamentally different from those of any other human being?

Or could you possily be driven by a preference for dark-skinned minorities over the white Christian majority whom, it could be argued, 'you' hate?

"It's not a paper, just wiki but gives a high level idea of the debate and issues around antizionism. Are you not ware of the potential and actual overlaps Bert?"

Yes. But you said "more often than not". And I have repeatedly been called anti Semitic on this and other threads. And anything I post is ignored- apart from those posts which can be shouted down by such allegations.

I can only think that this is a means of shutting down debate. There is nothing more calculated to make a thoughtful liberal person shut up than being called a racist, an anti Semite........

"Or could you possily be driven by a preference for dark-skinned minorities over the white Christian majority whom, it could be argued, 'you' hate?"

What the actual fuck does that mean?

On the question of Palestinians having or not having rights, I would be genuinely interested to hear what rights Zionists think that Palestinians should have

No whataboutery on this thread, apparently. You are meant to stick to the question. Or is that just applied to some and not others?

Are you not aware of the potential and actual overlaps Bert?"
Yes.
Oh that's terrific because last time you were asked you said no.
"the rhetoric anti-zionists apply is often hateful about Jews as well"
Is it? Not in my experience.

"Yes. But you said "more often than not". And I have repeatedly been called anti Semitic on this and other threads. And anything I post is ignored- apart from those posts which can be shouted down by such allegations."

people reply to posts they want to, if they neither agree or disagree with some of your posts they may not reply,whereas others trigger a response... not all posts are replied to, it's an asynchronous discussion board and many posts go unanswered.

And I have repeatedly been called anti Semitic on this thread

Really? Did I miss it?

Helmet It's not whataboutery in the least - you just don't want to answer the question.

This thread is about Jeremy Corbyn's alleged anti-semitism, claims for which appear to be based on his brother suggesting that it's not anti-semitic to say that Palestinians have rights.

If it's racist to suggest that Palestinians have rights, is that because they have fewer of them? Or what?

Some of the Palestinians are Christians.

You can be a Zionist (i.e someone who supports the existence of the State of Israel) and be highly critical of Israeli policy and work for justice for the Palestinians. You can be an Israeli and be highly critical of Israeli policy and work for justice for the Palestinians. But to many "Anti-Zionists", the only good Jew is one who wants to obliterate Israel.

LeLaluifleur

I agree that there is often an overlap between anti-zionism and anti-semitism, and that politically influential people should be careful about how they phrase things. There is an interesting contrast between the reluctance of some on the left to accept this overlap when it comes to anti-semitism, compared to the absence of any such distinction often implied by the term "Islamophobia". (Because this term is frequently used on the left to imply that criticism of Islamic beliefs is identical to hatred of Muslims.)

"Really? Did I miss it?"

Yep- you must have done. Surprising really when it took you about 10 posts

There is, of course potential overlap between anti Zionism and anti semitism. It is not "often", or "more often than not". And the debate just can't continue if the fact that many people are anti Zionism without being anti Semitic can't be accepted.

MIst are you really playing these tweets down?
twitter.com/WikiGuido/status/709357317494538240/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Reinstating Vicky Curby was utterly wrong, would you not agree?

Zionism is the belief that the Jews should have their own nation (my italics). One can support the continued physical and political existence of Israel without sharing that belief.

"There is an interesting contrast between the reluctance of some on the left to accept this overlap when it comes to anti-semitism, compared to the absence of any such distinction often implied by the term "Islamophobia". (Because this term is frequently used on the left to imply that criticism of Islamic beliefs is identical to hatred of Muslims.)"

Yes absolutely.

Bertrand, what exactly do you mean by "anti Zionist"? Do you mean you are highly critical of the actions of the Israeli government? Or do you mean you don't think Israel should exist?

Mistigirl - genuine question here... how can one support the continued physical and political existence of Israel and yet deny the idea that Jews have their own nation?

Lelalu not at all. She's rightly been suspended again (she shouldn't have been allowed back in, of course). Labour has issues with anti-semitism, but they are not fundamentally different in this respect to the other main parties. Anti-semitism has a long history in the UK, it's not confined to any particular political or social class.

Where you lose me is how this means that Corbyn is anti-semitic. It seems to come down to the fact that you are anti-semitic if you believe that Palestinians have rights.

Was it me?

High-fives self.

So 25% of anti-semitic crimes in the UK come from Islamic racists from communities that make up only 4.6% of the country.

And that's good news?

It is a problem that Labour is so reluctant to tackle anti-semitism (and sexism) among the Muslim community. I can understand the fears that it will lead to a resurgence of the right-wing, however, I think ignoring it, lying, denying, and covering up is a big mistake and actually does a massive disservice to the vast majority of moderate Muslims.

cingolimama well, it depends how you define "Israel" doesn't it? Could the physical (geographic) and political entity that is "Israel" exist as a secular state? And if not, why not?