Labour and anti-semitism

[LeLaluifleur]

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

I'm sorry what? Mist where did i say that Corbyn is anti-Semitic? ,puzzled.

I said that his response to a sensitive topic and his brothers blurting tactless comments makes them arses irresponsible and crass.

Mist, well because it's a Jewish state. It was actually founded by secular (non-religious) Jews, but still was founded on the idea of a homeland for a persecuted people.

It's not whataboutery in the least - you just don't want to answer the question.

Shrugs. Im happy to answer the question, I just didn't see how your question is an acceptable deviation and mine is not.

I think Palestinians should have equal rights to the rest of peoples all over the world: that is free, self determination, democracy, sexual equality, in their own nation.

It seems to come down to the fact that you are anti-semitic if you believe that Palestinians have rights.

Wow.Where are you getting that from?

LeLalu Piers Corbyn left the Labour party in 2002. These days he's a nutty climate conspiracist admired by the likes of Nigel Lawson and Boris Johnson. He can be as irresponsible as he likes, tbh; free speech and all that. He has nothing to do with the Labour Party.

Note that in the Express article linked above, JC said as much: his brother has his "own views".

I see - so Corbyn's brother said, Zionists can’t cope with anyone supporting rights for Palestine?

He's an idiot.

I agree it's not Jeremy's fault. I'd hate to be judged on some of my family's views.

Mist, well because it's a Jewish state. It was actually founded by secular (non-religious) Jews, but still was founded on the idea of a homeland for a persecuted people.

This is where I think the edges of what is "Zionism" or "anti-Zionism" get very blurred. On one thread not so long ago, I was told in no uncertain terms that my late Jewish stepfather, who was not observant (obviously: he was married to my English, agnostic mother for 15 years until his death) was not "really Jewish" even though his family were refugees from nazism. What is a "secular Jew"? (Honest question).

It's possible to support the creation of Israel as a political response to a traumatic period of world history, and to support (on pragmatic grounds) its continued existence as a geographical and political entity (a "nation") without believing that the Jews have a unique claim to "their own nation" on the basis of their religion.

A secular Jew is someone who has a Jewish family background, and perhaps identifies as culturally Jewish, but doesn't practise Judaism. Surely you've come across this before?

Zionism is the belief that the Jews should have their own nation (my italics). One can support the continued physical and political existence of Israel without sharing that belief.

How so? Can you define 'Israel'?

Sorry, cingolimama, I crossed posts as I hadn't yet read the end of page 9 or indeed 10.

'It is legitimate to criticize the policies of Israel. This criticism exists in Israel itself. But this is not what we are talking about in France. This is radical criticism of the very existence of Israel, which is anti-Semitic. There is an incontestable link between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. Behind anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism.' - Manuel Valls

I'd like to know what Bertrand feels about this statement.

You, too, Mistigri..

...and for anyone questioning the rise in anti-Semitism in the UK:

'According to the Community Security Trust, 2014 saw the highest number of anti-Semitic incidents in the United Kingdom, which is home to 300,000 Jews, since the organization began its monitoring efforts, in 1984: it recorded 1,168 anti-Semitic incidents. This is more than double the number of incidents in 2013, and exceeds the previous record, from 2009, of 931 incidents. In a recent survey conducted on behalf of the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism, a quarter of British Jews said they had considered leaving the country; more than half of those surveyed said they fear that Jews have no future in Great Britain.'

"TheNewStwtesman. You have accused me of being anti Semitic. Please give examples. If you choose not to, I will report you to MNHQ and let them decide."

!?!

I think you are confusing me with someone else. I don't think I called anybody on this thread anything.

Not sure my MNHQ is deleting anyone's threads. If Florian wants to write stuff that is antisemitic, then let her do so. It's better to have the debate.

thirtynine I know that you are not looking for a nuanced response, but the answer to that question is not that simple. Do I think it's anti-semitic to criticise the very existence of Israel, or wish for its disappearance? Well, yes, in practice I think it is. I can't think of anyone who holds this point of view who is not also a holocaust denier. Israel's creation was a response to a shameful period of world history, and none of that history can be reversed.

When discussing Israel it isn't helpful to start from anywhere but the present - which is that a geopolitical entity called Israel exists, and the people who now live in that territory have rights, regardless of their religion or heritage.

Where I would disagree with Valls is that anti-zionism and anti-semitism are synonymous - they are overlapping, but by no means identical, and depend to a certain extent on how broadly or narrowly you define Zionism (even Zionists don't appear to agree on this). It's possible to have perfectly rational and non-racist reservations about zionism, based on a broader view that religion or genealogy should not be the basis of citizenship or nationhood, or out of a political aversion to colonialism.

Do I think that Jews have a "god-given right" to occupy the piece of land we call modern Israel? Plainly not, since I don't think that religion is an appropriate basis for modern statehood. Do I think that the people presently living legally in Israel should continue to do so, and to retain the rights normally enjoyed by citizens of a modern state? Yes I do.

Regarding the rise in anti-semitism, this is absolutely unsurprising in a climate of rising hate crime generally:

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/467366/hosb0515.pdf

It will be interesting to see the 2015/16 estimates as there have been anecdotal reports of a significant rise in attacks on muslim women after the Paris attacks, and the referendum appears to have created a political environment in which it has become more socially acceptable to hold racist views.

I suppose a more pertinent question is whether rising anti-semitism is separate in some way from the general trend of rising intolerance of other ethnic, national and religious groups.

I absolutely apologize, TheNewStatesman, I got the wrong person. It was ThirtyNineWeeks who made the accusation.

based on a broader view that religion or genealogy should not be the basis of citizenship or nationhood,

I would very much doubt that most anti-zionists on the Left would share the view that "genealogy" shouldn't be the basis of nationhood. The rights of people of various ethnicities to self-determination and statehood has been a central tenet of modern leftism.

Your earlier question "What is a secular Jew?" seems to hint that you don't view Jewishness as an ethnic/cultural identity, but rather only as a religion. I don't think that is really correct.

As for citizenship, I feel I should point out, in case anyone reading this is not aware of the fact, that 25% of Israeli citizens are not Jewish.

Your earlier question "What is a secular Jew?" seems to hint that you don't view Jewishness as an ethnic/cultural identity, but rather only as a religion. I don't think that is really correct.

Not at all. If you had read my earlier comment, you'll see that it was in relation to other people questioning the right of my late stepfather to consider himself Jewish (non-observant Jew whose second marriage was to a British woman of christian heritage). But it raises broader questions of how we define an "ethnic/ cultural identity" - if my mother and stepfather had had children (which they didn't), would they have had the right to consider themselves Jewish? (Not by Jewish religious rules, sure, but we have already agreed that "being Jewish" is not just about religion).

Mistigri - no one would dispute he was Jewish, least of all the Israelis, who would allow him and his family to immigrate. What point are you making?

"LeLalu Piers Corbyn left the Labour party in 2002. These days he's a nutty climate conspiracist admired by the likes of Nigel Lawson and Boris Johnson. He can be as irresponsible as he likes, tbh; free speech and all that. He has nothing to do with the Labour Party."

Yes, D Corbyn is definitely nutty and, in principle, people shouldn't be judged by the opinions and behaviour of their relatives.

However, J Corbyn responded to his brother's views "No my brother isn't wrong. My brother has his point of view, I have mine. We actually fundamentally agree".

Hence, J Corbyn publicly endorsed what D corbyn said about anti-zionism. fool

"It will be interesting to see the 2015/16 estimates as there have been anecdotal reports of a significant rise in attacks on muslim women after the Paris attacks, and the referendum appears to have created a political environment in which it has become more socially acceptable to hold racist views. "

Yes that sounds plausible. However, many people are becoming increasingly aware of the conservative, politics Islamist elements in Europe and are rightly concerned by this. Their concerns, when expressed, are more often than not labelled 'racist' which they are not necessarily.

I guess the question of who can claim a particular ethnicity is always going to be a bit blurry, and will always be partly a question of self-identity. How many ancestors back do you have to go?

Interestingly, Israel modified the Right of Return in 1970, so not only your grandfather, but his grandchildren, would have been accepted as Israeli citizens, had they wished to apply . Given Israel's small size, and the fact that it was purposely set up as a refuge for Jewish people after the Holocaust, I think that that level of distinction for identifying Jewish ethnicity with regard to the right of return is pretty reasonable.

(Sorry, my post above was addressed to Misti)

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