Labour and anti-semitism

[LeLaluifleur]

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

The trouble is, one-track ideological thinking is extremely rewarding emotionally. You get to congratulate yourself on how you and your group are right and all those awful other people are not just wrong, but positively wicked. You also get a lovely warm sense of belonging. Young people are especially vulnerable to this, I think - I certainly was when I was younger. They also tend to accept what political sources say uncritically, believing that spin and misrepresentation is what happens on the other side of the debate, not on their own side.

It's very striking that a number of the people spouting hatred of 'zionists' on CIF, for example, clearly know next to nothing about the actual issues, the history and complexity of the situation. Many of them appear to be just uncritically repeating things they have seen or heard from others.

There are some easily shocked people on here.

What Corbyn (J) actually said was "my brother has his views, I have mine" but that they agreed on fundamental points ie they are both against racism but support rights for Palestinians. That's a pretty uncontroversial statement - surely it's logically impossible to be anti-racist while simultaneously believing that Palestinians should not have rights?

ie they are both against racism but support rights for Palestinians

Did he actally say that though or is that your interpretation?

Mistigri - noone is saying that the Palestinians don;t have any rights. The question, which can be a matter of reasoned debate, is what happens where their rights come into conflict with other people's, for example the Jews. For some of JC's "friends" in the position is clear - the Jews should all be slaughtered as they cower behind trees. Some would think that this isn't a very anti-racist solution.

Another possibility is that by "anti-racist", the Corbyns mean that they are against the west or whichever side the west is backing. That is far more consistent with what they are claiming.

Mist not sure if that comment was directed at my shock at Khadim Hussain' s comment...
"Former lord mayor of Bradford Khadim Hussain was suspended after attacking Holocaust education in schools “and the six million Zionists that were killed”."

was it?

Butting in late here am on page 4, interesting discussion so far, but am perplexed that racism on the rise in Europe is mentioned in terms of the right wing ( yes true) but no mention of the Jews gunned down shot, or racism towards the Jews from Muslims? wHY>!

oH, ON PAGE 6 now and I see someone has also noticed this strange omission

Stepinto - I have posted a few links to some articles, one of interest is an article in The Atlantic that gives a summary of anti-semitism around Europe. If you read it you will see how the increase in attacks are directly linked to an extent to Muslims, only no one wants to touch that subject with a bargepole. Here's a direct quote from the article:

"...Dave Rich, an official of the Community Security Trust, a Jewish organization that monitors anti-Semitism in the United Kingdom, wrote recently: “Those British Muslims who verbally abuse British Jews on the street are more likely to shout ‘Heil Hitler’ than ‘Allahu akbar’ when they do so. This is despite the fact that their parents and grandparents were probably chased through the very same streets by gangs of neo-Nazi skinheads shouting similar slogans.”..."

The entire article is worth a read: www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/is-it-time-for-the-jews-to-leave-europe/386279/

A clamourous case in point is the attending and sanctioning of segregated meetings, where women had separate seating and a separate entrance. This should have been ushered out with the Sex Discrimination Act of 1975, never to return

Excellent post Izlet.

thank you for hanging in there Helmet, i appreciate your posts as well as many others and have a tiny bit more of an understanding of some of the issues maybe. Talking about a sensitive issue such as on this thread, I find it so important to try and be open and challenge views with facts not opinions and ideology, which is what florian was not. She sounded also quite confused and her posts seemed to be a bit muddled up.

i agree.

Thanks Rain, interesting thread. Will read that article later.

two Of the messages of mone that were deleted were simple corrections of spelling and grammar and repeating my previous post
I screenshot them anyway
I've reported two of Helmets posts for blatantly misrepresenting my words/posts and trying to portray me as a racist
I have not made one single Racist statement in this thread and have made many condemning the behavior of the subject of the post which Helmet has conveniently ignored in her two bullet point essays explaining her "interpretation" of my words
Erroneous interpretations with extra lashings of poetic licence and fantasy IMO

Don't think I'm confused at all
I'm being personally attacked and insulted and my words completely twisted by Helmet
My iPad is a bit erratic and my Internet cuts out occasionally so it dies muck up some posts which is annoying

oh The irony Stepinto the light
My problem with this thread is being called Racist and Dim and two massive half page essays on someone's fantasy version of my words!!!
No facts involved in that character assassination!!

Apparently I should stay out of this thread because I'm
I quote "Racist, Dim, and Confused"
All opinion and Not debate or constructive IMO

Just getting back to the notion of shock assuming introduced by mist.

He ( D corbyn) went on: “All Corbyns are committed antiNazi. Zionists can’t cope with anyone supporting rights for Palestine.”

So they are "anti-nazi - not sure about the exact semantics here but I wonder if this means the Corbyns are anti or opposed to what the Nazis i.e. Nazional Sozialisten during Hitler's regime did (killing millions of Jewish people as well as socialists, disabled, gypsies etc)

Fairly standard to be anti this, apart from some crazed Neo-Nazis or Islamists.

I think it is callous of David Corbyn to throw in "Zionists can’t cope with anyone supporting rights for Palestine.” in such a casual way exploiting his brothers current limited limelight in order broadcast his own political views.

And I do find it shocking that J Corbyn said he agrees with his brother. Would he have dome the same had a fictional feminist sister said (for arguments sake) "Conservative Muslims can't cope with anyone supporting women's right"? Would he have said "I agree with her fundamentally and "all Corbyns are feminists"? I wonder sorry naff example.

*in such a casual way exploiting his brothers current limited limelight in order broadcast his own political views. - forgot to add he commented callously or flippantly on a sensitive, awfully complex and volatile political situation. I find it at best inappropriate and misguided and full of self importance and at worst highly irresponsible and shit stirring.

What I am trying to say is this:

Anti-zionism is more after than not intimately intertwined with anti-semitism, if Corbyn J/D don't know this they are less clued in or hones than I thought.

If they do know that being anti-zionist is at the very least polictially sensitive, than they are basically being arses.

• my contribution to a rational discussion not

gah... my own posts are also muddled up, i hope my points get across. Am typing whilst doing the ironing .

Just looked up the govt statistics for Anti Semitic crimes and attacks in the UK
Over a hundred, the vast majority of them were associated with Far Right hate groups
Around thirty something Islamic related
I'm having problems posting links and copy pasting cos my damn Internet but those are the facts on the Govt website
This reflects that in my view the threat of far right extremism in relation to hate crimes is vastly underestimated in discourse on this subject and the contribution of Islamic based racist rhetoric vastly overestimated
Both are dangerous and abbhorent but I was trying to resist the ball dangled in front of me earlier in this thread for whole thing to turn into a general Muslim Bashing exercise
I'm not a fan of any extremism Muslim or otherwise but I'm trying to focus on realities, not assumptions and conjecture.
The amount of assumptions made in here are quite counterproductive in my opinion
There are upcoming govt panels which will bring all members of the community together to try and resolve these issues and I hope to God they can actually have a constructive dialogue which will improve the situation and not resort to hurling abuse!

The rightness of using religion as the basis for statehood..

Jews were made a promise by God, and the prophesies within the Old Testament relating to the return to their homeland are being precisely fulfilled. It matters not whether or not you believe in all of this, but this is the promise upon which Zionists conduct their political behaviour (and no, this cannot be compared to the vision of the terrorists IS - nothing in the Qu'ran validates their worldview.....does it? )

"What I am trying to say is this:

Anti-zionism is more after than not intimately intertwined with anti-semitism, if Corbyn J/D don't know this they are less clued in or hones than I thought.

If they do know that being anti-zionist is at the very least polictially sensitive, than they are basically being arses."

So basically what you are saying is that people like me, who are not anti Semitic, but who are anti Zionist should just shut up. Great.

Florian, 'hate crimes against the poor & disabled'?? What on Earth? Are you going to compare these groups to the persecution of Jews in recent times?

Bert no that is not what I said. I said that the leader of the Labour party and his brother ought to handle politically sensitive topics such as Israel / Palestine ... appropriately, honestly by all means but sensitively too, not callously and bluntly. Bert you can post anything you like and you have made it clear you are not anti-semitic. But you are not Labour leader and what you write has less potential for creating a politically volatile and unhelpful situation.

So Corbyns are irresponsible commenting in such a way on this topic, whereas you can comment any way you like as long as you don't break MN guidelines. There is a big difference.