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Labour and anti-semitism

999 replies

LeLaluifleur · 10/04/2016 09:15

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

Shock Sad

OP posts:
grinkle · 29/04/2016 00:16

Livingstone's claims that Hitler was a proto-Zionist are absolute bollocks. See:

twitter.com/Channel4News/status/725709944863903744

Marmite59 · 29/04/2016 00:27

So this is what has happened in the Labour Party today:

  1. The ex mayor of London defends Naz Shah. In doing so he suggests Hitler was a Zionist up to 1932.
  2. Said politician tours Tri-Borough studios repeating same views.
  3. He gets into a public stand up row with a Labour mp who calls him a 'fucking disgrace'.
  4. Ex mayor ends up locking himself in a disabled toilet to avoid further harassment.
  5. KL is suspended from Labour after 20 Labour MPs openly petition.
  6. After about 6 hours the leader of the Labour Party speaks on the issue and suggests the issue is being used by his enemies to discredit Labour.
  7. People on Twitter actively condone KL's comments. They appear to be almost entirely from the 'new left'. Many of same call for John Mann, John Woodcock and Wes Streeting to be disciplined and thrown out of Labour whilst at same time lauding KL for his proud record in fighting racism. Go to Change.org if you don't believe me.
The secretary of Croydon Labour backs up Ken as does Seamas Milne who says 'Ken has a point'.

In a day. In one day. Christ on a bike.

Marmite59 · 29/04/2016 00:29

'TV studios'

Marmite59 · 29/04/2016 00:33

They told me they had left Israel because they couldn't stand Israelis and
Israel. Some may try to portray such an idea as antisemitic.. I would not like to try and accuse an orthodox jew of being amtisemitic.*

I think I'm done here.

grinkle · 29/04/2016 00:38

It is heartening to see how many in Labour are taking this seriously and beginning to imagine what a Labour Party that is welcoming to Jews would look like.

labourlist.org/2016/04/jonathan-reynolds-my-plea-to-labours-jews-stay-with-us-and-lets-stamp-out-anti-semitism/

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/8-steps-labour-needs-take-7694155

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/28/antisemitism-rocked-labour-self-belief?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Owen Jones' response on Twitter was most amusing.

"Owen Jones ‏@OwenJones84 13h13 hours ago

@ken4london Please. Stop. Please. "

" Owen Jones ‏@OwenJones84 12h12 hours ago

Ken Livingstone has to be suspended from the Labour Party. Preferably before I pass out from punching myself in the face. "

grinkle · 29/04/2016 00:43

@Marmite Grin

Clearly some fairly giant education work to be done here.
But leaving aside the extremist anti-Semitic nutters, who let's face it were never going to turn into pleasant and rational human beings, the misguided masses supporting Ken probably do genuinely think they're the good guys, ighting the good fight.

Gentle - but persistent - explanation and discussion is in order here, to help them fill in the gaps in their understanding.

grinkle · 29/04/2016 00:47

More evidence that Ken was wrong:

twitter.com/simon_schama/status/725741855707676672

(If any more was needed.)

grinkle · 29/04/2016 00:53

And more, along with further analysis of why Ken's comments were so beyond the pale. Hadn't realised until I read this that he was speaking to Vanessa Feltz at the time, who is of course Jewish. Yuck.

capx.co/ken-livingstone-gets-the-history-wrong-on-anti-semitism-and-hitler/

BigChocFrenzy · 29/04/2016 01:26

Hitler and the Nazis under him deliberately murdered 6 million defenceless Jews.
They did so because they hated Jews and aimed to exterminate them from Europe.

When Hitler first came to power, some Zionists thought Hitler didn't mean what he said about extermination and that he would settle for letting the Jews leave Europe for Israel.
They totally misjudged him, because the horrific truth would have sounded insane

The UK, French, US & other governments also totally misjudged Hitler and thought he could be pacified with a few concessions. They were supposed to be the professionals and they bungled it totally.

If UKIP got elected here on a manifesto of getting rid of immigrants, I'd assume they meant me to emigrate somewhere and I might be quite eager to go under those circumstances.
I wouldn't expect them to kill me in a gas chamber, cut off my hair to put in pillows, pull out gold fillings from my teeth (if I had fillings !) or to murder me in sadistic medical experiments.

You tend not to believe the unthinkable may happen.

JewryMember · 29/04/2016 03:36

Forkhandles, I read your article and what stands out is that there was a complete imbalance of power between Zionists and Nazi Germany, despite attempts to rewrite the collaboration as one of mutual benefit. In a nutshell: As Nicosia concludes, ultimately, there was absolutely no way in which they could actually "collaborate," for "in the end, the Nazis maintained a contempt for Zionism as for all things Jewish, as representative of what they considered to be some of the most dangerous and abhorrent characteristics of the Jews as a people."

JewryMember · 29/04/2016 03:41

I do think there is a difference between antisemitic hatred of jewish people and a profound disquiet about the conduct of the state of Israel.

Yes, Hitler felt exactly the same as you.

ammiG · 29/04/2016 03:52

Jewrymember:

Wow so now Israel existed during hitlers reign?

Classic attempt to shut down a valid argument! Or an utter inability to differentiate between jews as a religion/culture ( they are not one race) and its abusive policies!.

JewryMember · 29/04/2016 04:26

Do you know the correlation between Zion and Israel? Hitler knew exactly what the vision of Zionists was; it matters not that Israel did not yet exist.

JewryMember · 29/04/2016 04:28

an utter inability to differentiate between jews...and its abusive policies!

Who's confused now?

ProfessorPreciseaBug · 29/04/2016 07:23

Jewrey.

Seeing as you claim to know how I feel.... please make a public statement of my views together with your proof to demonstrate what you are saying is an accurate reflection of how I feel.

forkhandles4candles · 29/04/2016 07:31

Jewry the point is that something akin to collaboration took place, but can't be called as such because of the power imbalance. I think this is the crucial paragraph

... the Ha'avara agreement must be understood as part of the regime's support for Jewish emigration, not as previewing in some way steps leading to the Final Solution. "Throughout the 1930s, as part of the regime's determination to force the Jews to leave Germany, there was almost unanimous support in German government and Nazi party circles for promoting Zionism among German Jews, and Jewish emigration from Germany to Palestine" (p. 79). Still, by making use of the Zionist movement when it was convenient for Nazi policy, "the regime, perhaps unwittingly, permitted the Zionists a significant role in shaping some important components of Nazi policy prior to the genocide. These components, already important aspects of Zionist policy prior to the Nazi ascent to power in 1933, included the Ha'avara Transfer agreement, Zionist occupational retraining programs, large-scale community education programs, and the process of illegal immigration into Palestine. These were all Zionist initiatives that became elements of Nazi Jewish policy prior to the 'final solution'" (p. 284). The coalescing of Nazi and Zionist policy at key points around a shared goal of Jewish immigration from Germany gave preference to certain German Zionist objectives and, as Nicosia reminds us, regardless of whether such was the intent or not, by allowing thousands of Jews to reach Palestine in this way, saved their lives before WWII.

bobthebuddha · 29/04/2016 07:35

Livingstone stated that Hitler "was supporting Zionism" and that is accurate..

Riiiight - if "Hitler was supporting Zionism -this before he went mad and ended up killing 6 million Jews" is accurate and reasonable historical insight I'm sure we can expect to see publishers falling over themselves to get Ken in print putting all those lesser historians in their place Hmm

And did the evil right-wingers force him to invoke Godwin's Law for no good reason whatsoever? Did they have control of his mind and mouth?

Ricardian · 29/04/2016 07:37

"Hitler knew exactly what the vision of Zionists was"

And he completely opposed it, because he thought it was a Jewish plot for world domination. In 1925. That we are in a world in which soi-disant progressives and socialists are playing "I preferred his earlier work" over Adolf Hitler, and making the claim they share with charlatan Nazi-apologist David Irving that the Holocaust was a later aberration, not the whole point, shows how degraded left-wing politics are at the moment.

Let me do something that Mumsnet probably hasn't see for a while, and quote from Hitler's own writing. In, Mein Kampf, published 1925.

The Jew’s rule in the State now appears secured to such an extent that he may not only again call himself Jew, but ruthlessly admits his final thoughts as regards nationality and politics. A part of his race even admits quite openly that it is a foreign people, however, not without again lying in this respect. For while Zionism tries to make the other part of the world believe that the national self-consciousness of the Jew finds satisfaction in the creation of a Palestinian State, the Jews again most slyly dupe the stupid goyim.

They have no thought of building up a Jewish State in Palestine, so that they might perhaps inhabit it, but they only want a central organization of their international world cheating, endowed with prerogatives, withdrawn from the seizure of others: a refuge for convicted rascals and a high school for future rogues.

But it is the sign, not only of their rising confidence, but also their feeling of safety, that now, at a time when one part of them still mendaciously plays the German, the Frenchman, or the Englishman, the other part impudently and openly documents itself as the Jewish race.

In case you're having comprehension problems, and Antony Beevor's exegesis on Channel 4 News, which has been linked to upthread, wasn't clear enough, let me spell it. out. Jews might, Hitler says, claim to be content with a homeland in Palestine, but as in so many other things they are devious liars and this is only a front for world domination. Let's repeat the key paragraph. They have no thought of building up a Jewish State in Palestine, so that they might perhaps inhabit it, but they only want a central organization of their international world cheating, endowed with prerogatives, withdrawn from the seizure of others: a refuge for convicted rascals and a high school for future rogues.

  1. Before 1932. I'll take Antony Beevor over Ken "failed the 11+" Livingstone, Jeremy "kicked out of polytechnic" Corbyn and the rest of the dim that inhabit the anti-Semitic left. The irony is, one of the drivers of the NSDAP's anti-Semitism was an anti-intellectual, book-burning distaste for education. Suicidally, Hitler dismissed Einstein and his descendent as "Jewish Physics", a piece of racism that ended in Hiroshima but in another timeline would have ended over Berlin. Ken, Jeremy and the rest of the bitter, stupid, ill-educated Labour left don't know much, but they know what they hate. And what they hate is Jews. Just like their - we now learn - hero Adolf Hitler, the reasonable man who only wanted to found Israel until it all went wrong.
kesstrel · 29/04/2016 07:45

Bob That was such a moving article. Brought tears to my eyes.

"Seeing Naz Shah’s Facebook post recommending that Israeli Jews are relocated to the US gave me a start, not because it’s surprising – many British Muslims would hit Like on a post like that, comment on it or share it. No, I felt startled because I can remember when I might have shared a post like that myself"

Articles like that give one hope.

inews.co.uk/opinion/i-thoughtless-anti-semite-like-naz-shah-far-many-british-muslims/

kesstrel · 29/04/2016 07:59

Grinkle

the misguided masses supporting Ken probably do genuinely think they're the good guys, fighting the good fight.

Absolutely they do, but it's the arrogant, inflexible rigidity of that view that makes it scary. And that is unfortunately very characteristic of the further extremes of the left. They are sure they are right, and they aren't interested in questioning their views. It's a kind of group-think, where certain views are required for membership. And what's worse is that, if you do let it be known that you are questioning some of those 'obligatory' views, you are likely to find yourself ejected from your social circle as a heretic.

This analysis in the Guardian today is good, and describes the problematic consequences of the attitude you are referring to:

"But there is another possible explanation, and that’s the belief found close to many leftwing hearts that they, and they alone, are the good guys – the champions of equality and fairness – and therefore incapable of prejudice. They don’t need to question their assumptions, or take a long hard look in the mirror, because the racists are the other guys."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/28/antisemitism-rocked-labour-self-belief

grinkle · 29/04/2016 08:06

Bravo, Ricardian.

Though I doubt it will shut up some of the terminally stupid on this thread.

One of the few nice things about public displays of anti-Semitism is that does a wonderful job of highlighting the idiots lacking in empathy. Like a kind of torch that shines a bright light on a certain sort of person.

StKildasNun · 29/04/2016 08:09

@Marmite grin

Clearly some fairly giant education work to be done here.
But leaving aside the extremist anti-Semitic nutters, who let's face it were never going to turn into pleasant and rational human beings, the misguided masses supporting Ken probably do genuinely think they're the good guys, ighting the good fight

Gentle - but persistent - explanation and discussion is in order here, to help them fill in the gaps in their understanding

What a condescending attitude.

ammiG · 29/04/2016 08:17

' Do you know the correlation between Zion and Israel? Hitler knew exactly what the vision of Zionists was; it matters not that Israel did not yet exist.'

are you saying its because of that vision he killed 6 million jews?

Either way its irrelevant to the fact that state of israels present horrific and abusive policies towards palestinians ( hope that cleared up any confusion) is not anti Semitic in any sense of the word. ken Livingstone was correct in saying that there is a deliberate blurring of lines to shut down any genuine criticism of israel. You just proved him correct.

ammiG · 29/04/2016 08:34

Grinkle:

Please educate us ignorant masses by 'gently' answering these questions;

  1. why is any criticism of israels abuse to palestinians shut down as anti semitic..especially considering palestinians are also semites?

  2. why are jews considered one race when they are anything but? There are persian japanese arab black and white european jews... On what basis do they become a collective race and that too semites?

bobthebuddha · 29/04/2016 08:46

"why is any (my emphasis) criticism of israel's abuse to palestinians shut down as anti semitic..especially considering palestinians are also semites?"

Oh for Pete's sake. It's not, it's not, it's not!

From Gaby Hinsliff's article;
"Some will see in this a chilling of debate over the Middle East, a silencing of pro-Palestinian voices in the Labour party. But that’s a mirror image of the eternal rightwing grumble that they’re not “allowed” to talk about immigration any more thanks to political correctness, and about as well founded"