Labour and anti-semitism

[LeLaluifleur]

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

Wow, Labour seem to have become the really nasty party, or should that be the really Nazi party.

I love that, ammi G, dismissing Ken Livingstone's stupid anti-semitic theory as irrelevant. Irrelevant to you, right? Not irrelevant to most people.

why is any criticism of israels abuse to palestinians shut down as anti semitic..especially considering palestinians are also semites?
You understand that anti-semitic is a general term applied to prejudice against or hatred or discrimination against the Jews. Right? If you have a problem with that, you need to take it up with OED, or Wiki, or the people who make words popular. Y'know Jews aren't to blame for this one!

why are jews considered one race when they are anything but? There are persian japanese arab black and white european jews... On what basis do they become a collective race and that too semites?
You tell em. You fucking tell em - go on. How dare they think that and throughout history too? Fucking scum bags.

If Europe and ME hadn't been so awful to the Jews over the centuries then perhaps they wouldn't have needed to return to Israel. What harm have they ever done in Europe.

Interesting point about Ken and Corbyn's educational history. It could be Ken is jealous of some Jewish people as they are often high achievers academically.

^Grinkle:

Please educate us ignorant masses by 'gently' answering these questions;

1. why is any criticism of israels abuse to palestinians shut down as anti semitic..especially considering palestinians are also semites?

2. why are jews considered one race when they are anything but? There are persian japanese arab black and white european jews... On what basis do they become a collective race and that too semites?^

OK then, ignorant mass -

1. It isn't. You can criticise Israel's policies till the cows come home, as far as I'm concerned. Go right ahead.

1. Dunno, ask Hitler. I'm not really too bothered if you think Jews are a race or not, as long as you don't discriminate against me on the grounds that I'm a member of the Jewish 'race'.

*Oh for Pete's sake. It's not, it's not, it's not!

From Gaby Hinsliff's article;
"Some will see in this a chilling of debate over the Middle East, a silencing of pro-Palestinian voices in the Labour party. But that’s a mirror image of the eternal rightwing grumble that they’re not “allowed” to talk about immigration any more thanks to political correctness, and about as well founded*

I disagree with gaby... There is deliberate effort to shut down genuine debate around israel policies with the anti semite smear....some posts in this thread are classic examples..treatment of ken livingstone is another typical example.

Look at the disgusting tweets Luciana Berger MP has been sent and then come back and say there isn't an issue.

There is a deliberate effort to silence those that say there is a problem.

How has Ken been treated badly?

He was coming across as a pub bore verging on paranoid obsessive on The Daily Politics yesterday. Decidedly odd. His insistence on his being factually correct doesn't alter the irrelevance of what he had to say in regard to Naz Shah (who had already acknowledged her comments were not acceptable.)

He clearly enjoys putting the cat among the pigeon s, for whatever reasons, so I won't waste my sympathy on him.

Funnily enough, ammi, the evidence shows that you have the truth upside down. A really interesting article I read last year - will have to see if I can dig it out - quantitatively analysed news coverage concerning Israel and the data were really quite astonishing. Israel as a country was so vastly, disproportionately over-analysed by our media (in terms of numbers of articles occurring in British media discussing Israel compared to other parts of the world), it was really incredible (in the literal sense).

Far from debate on Israel being 'silenced', exactly the opposite is occurring. Is that because of an organised, orchestrated anti-Semitic lobby? I have no idea. But it's certainly unquestionable, and quite interesting as a cultural phenomenon, and a symptom of something, though I wouldn't like to say what.

All I can say is that if there is a "deliberate effort to shut down genuine debate around israel policies [sic] with the anti semite smear", it is truly, monumentally unsuccessful!

Ricardian, brilliant post.

ammi, my post pointing out that Zion as a vision existed before Israel the state was in response to the poster who keeps insisting Hitler and Zionists were once mates who enjoyed holidaying together but then fell out and decided to holiday separately next year.

*OK then, ignorant mass -

1. It isn't. You can criticise Israel's policies till the cows come home, as far as I'm concerned. Go right ahead.*

I dont think thats true in most cases; especially public figures people who are hounded out of offices or smeared for the slightest perceived criticism.

2. Dunno, ask Hitler. I'm not really too bothered if you think Jews are a race or not, as long as you don't discriminate against me on the grounds that I'm a member of the Jewish 'race'.

Well that was quick. Seems you're not qualified to 'educate us ignorant masses'..because turns out you're one of us

(Cut and posted from other thread.)

Tell us AmmiG, tell us all about the genuine debate around israel's policies that you feel is being silenced here -

*Vicki Kirby, vice chair of the Labour’s Woking branch
"Jews have “big noses” and “slaughter the oppressed."

Luton Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz
"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."

"Hitler is the Zionist god".

"My man Hitler"

"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history."
Iran are going to have their own nuclear weapon and are going to wipe Israel off the map."

"The Jews are so powerful in the US it’s disgusting."

Councillor Khadim Hussain, former Lord Mayor of Bradford
"Your school education system only tells you about Anne Frank and the six million Zionists [!!!!] that were killed by Hitler."

"Greater Israel courtesy of Isis" , "There is no doubt who created the so called ISIS and who is arming those vile terrorists!"

Labour councillor Beinazir Lasharie
“Many people know about who was behind 9/11 and also who is behind Isis. I’ve nothing against Jews ... just sharing it!”

“I’ve heard some compelling evidence about Isis being originated from Zionists!”

Naz Shah
“Solution for Israel-Palestine Conflict – Relocate Israel into United States”, [...] “problem solved”.*

Whats your view then? That this is mere sophisticated discussion of Israel's policies? Are you saying this isn't anti-semitism? Or perhaps you're going to say it's "irrelevant"?

So ammi Do you not think comments like 'the Jews are rallying' are anti-Semetic then?

What do you think is anri-Semetic?

Professor, refer to my post at 3.36 and see the words in italic.

AmmiG
There's a whole wing of the left dedicated to Palestinian causes, The leader of the Labour party included.

I don't see the political landscape you see.

2) why are jews considered one race when they are anything but? There are persian japanese arab black and white european jews... On what basis do they become a collective race and that too semites?^

Indeed, ask Hitler - you were up for annihilation if you had two Jewish grandparents.

Or ask the kids who repeatedly pushed DS around in both PRIMARY schools he's been to and abused him as 'Jew boy' and more by virtue of the fact that he has one Jewish grandparent and one Jewish parent (perhaps Hitler would have let him off on that one, who knows). He looked like a candidate for an Aryan ideal on a der Sturmer cover at the time, but you know, the 'basis on (which) they become a collective race' is something to do with heritage for the anti-Semites rather than how they look...

Helmet; disingenuous to say the least. do you really think most of that is genuine criticism of israels present abusive policies?

Helmet; disingenuous to say the least. do you really think most of that is genuine criticism of israels present abusive policies?

But what has been quoted has been said. Yet people like KL still deny it is going on. That is the issue.

Apologies if this is bad form but I will copy/paste the collection of quotes i posted on the KL thread here to pose a question to those who state there is no problem with anti-semitism in the Labour party, please clarify if you view these comments as 'criticising the state of Israel' or as anti-semitic:

Vicki Kirby, vice chair of the Labour’s Woking branch
"Jews have “big noses” and “slaughter the oppressed."

Luton Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz
"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."

"Hitler is the Zionist god".

"My man Hitler"

"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history."
Iran are going to have their own nuclear weapon and are going to wipe Israel off the map."

"The Jews are so powerful in the US it’s disgusting."

Councillor Khadim Hussain, former Lord Mayor of Bradford
"Your school education system only tells you about Anne Frank and the six million Zionists [!!!!] that were killed by Hitler."

"Greater Israel courtesy of Isis" , "There is no doubt who created the so called ISIS and who is arming those vile terrorists!"

Labour councillor Beinazir Lasharie
“Many people know about who was behind 9/11 and also who is behind Isis. I’ve nothing against Jews ... just sharing it!”

“I’ve heard some compelling evidence about Isis being originated from Zionists!”

Naz Shah
“Solution for Israel-Palestine Conflict – Relocate Israel into United States”, [...] “problem solved”.

Think about all the comments in context, in the context that 70 years ago millions of men, women and children were systematically murdered. Persecuted and murdered not by one or two disturbed individuals but by a regime, where the Holocaust was regarded as legitimate by a whole nation.

In response to Naz Shah's public proposal to ethnically cleanse Israel by transporting all Israeli Jews to America KL had to comment that Hitler was a Zionist. The implications of this public statement have been explained by another poster upthread. Namely endorsing Hitler with political legitimacy, minimising the Holocaust, and suggesting an association between Zionists and Hitler in a deliberately misleading way. Remember this comment was not made in the context of am explorative history session on the Holocaust but in response to allegations of anti-Semitism, so they were inappropriate, insensitive and callous to say the least.

ah.... helmet beat me to it never mind.

"my post pointing out that Zion as a vision existed before Israel the state was in response to the poster who keeps insisting Hitler and Zionists were once mates who enjoyed holidaying together but then fell out and decided to holiday separately next year."

---

jewry - are you referring to me with this - because that is a phenomenally pathetic and desperate thing to say. Sorry that history is too complex for you to grasp

ammiG - not "disingenuous to say the least" - it was a straightforward question.

"Helmet; disingenuous to say the least. do you really think most of that is genuine criticism of israels present abusive policies?"

What the heck ammi? These are the commons that are being excused as just 'anti-zionist' rather than anti-Semitic, look at the first few posts for example by Bertrand Truth hurts eh?

Sorry that history is too complex for you to grasp

That's not really an insult to throw at someone when you've just held Ken Livingstone up as providing quality historical analysis

*So ammi Do you not think comments like 'the Jews are rallying' are anti-Semetic then?

What do you think is anri-Semetic?*

Would you say the 'christians are rallying' is racist? I dont see jews a a specific race, more a religion/culture. They were at one time strictly one race; but conversions from all over the world has meant that technically people of all races under the banner of judaism the faith rather than a race. Much similar to other all faiths we have. Hence i have trouble with this notion of anti semite smear on anyone criticising israel in particular.

Little point in arguing with the terminally stupid. As I said, anti-Semitism does do us all (Jewish or not) some favours in making clear exactly who the sociopathic imbeciles are. So we can know to avoid them.