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Labour and anti-semitism

999 replies

LeLaluifleur · 10/04/2016 09:15

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

Shock Sad

OP posts:
Alyosha · 28/04/2016 16:06

It's all so tiring, Jews are the only people who aren't allowed to define antisemitism. Olivia et al just know better than us what is really antisemitism, it seems. I'm telling you Ken is an antisemite. So was (is?) Naz Shah.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/04/2016 17:28

For my generation, with a father & uncles who served in WW2, anti-semitism brings visceral horror.
I'm disgusted it is now minimised, a subject for jokes, whataboutery.

It is unacceptable to say Labour are just reflecting the 7-10% anti-semitism in the general population.
Do we accept them reflecting the remaining prejudice of the population against AfroCaribbeans, Muslims .... ?

At school in the 1960s I was the only non-white kid and was subjected to frequent racial abuse by kids and racist corporal punishment by one teacher.
Race prejudice was widespread & horrific then.
The reason this is not still the case is because from the 1970s it was mostly stamped out when found, not excused

JewryMember · 28/04/2016 17:34

JSG are all barmy.

grinkle · 28/04/2016 17:35

This is exhausting but maybe it's a good thing if it all comes out.

These attitudes exposed to the cold light of day and debated is maybe what is needed to show up who the closet racists and anti-Semites really are. After all, Ken has been an anti-Semite for years and got away with shocking stuff before eg calling the Jewish reporter a concentration camp guard.

There is a fundamental hypocrisy at the root of these attitudes that needs exposing - the support for violently racist, misogynist and homophobic Muslim extremists that is so fashionable among some on the left needs to be examined - along with the incompatibility of that support with claims to be left-wing.

The fundamental dilemma is how much we are prepared to tolerate intolerance, as part of a society that values tolerance highly. And I think we have to accept that there are limits on tolerance, actually - that we should not tolerate those who would discriminate, often violently, in contravention of our laws.

It's time to out all those who would support attacks on women, LGBT, Jews, etc - whoever the perpetrators are. The fact that the perpetrators may come from a minority religion or a poor part of the world should not make their offence excusable let alone admirable. It is time that those who claim to be left-wing, like Ken, but who in reality support the most reactionary right-wing clerics, are unmasked for what they really are - at best utter hypocrites and at worst, anti-Semitic, misogynistic and homophobic troublemakers.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 28/04/2016 17:55

Fantastic post, Grinkle Flowers

Ricardian · 28/04/2016 18:10

"Ken said that in all his time as a Labour member he had never heard anyone say anything anti-Semitic

Apart from, as a random example, that Hitler was a good man who won an election in 1932 and merely wanted to expel Jews from Germany, and it was only later than he "went mad". So now, in Livingstone Land, Mein Kampf (published 1925) is not the work of an eliminationist anti-Semite, but in fact of a democrat who only wanted to help establish Israel a few years early, and Hitler's rise to power wasn't an autocratic coup, but was "winning the election". It was only later he went mad, and fascist, apparently.

That's the sort of embarrassing fawning over the Nazis as being basically on the right lines but getting carried away later which you find on Stormfront, and Livingstone's claims to "reading a lot of history" can only be understood to mean "reading a lot of books by David Irving and, for light relief, Eric Nolte". It's not quite holocaust denial, but it's getting pretty close to it: it's the claim that the holocaust was not the systematic expression of the policies of the Nazis, but a later aberration, brought on by circumstances (Nolte) and done without Hitler's knowledge or direct instruction (Irving). One does have to wonder why, if Hitler were such a cuddly friend of the Jews in 1932, that Dachau was opened in 1933 and the Nuremberg race laws were enacted in 1935, but once you're an apologist for HItler, I guess those sorts of problems are easy enough to gloss over.

This is a member of the Labour NEC speaking. He's apparently booked on Question Time for tonight, which I presume won't happen.

On a more serious note, if such a thing is possible, you don't have to have spent a lot of time around people with early-stage dementia or suffering from the effects of small strokes to see that Ken is, in fact, unwell. He perhaps always was anti-Semitic filth, but if he was he was a smart enough politician and had enough of a filter to keep it on the down low. He's now completely unhinged, and that loss of social awareness as to what you are saying is the sort of thing that is an early symptom of dementia, as people (rightly) suggest over on Relationships when parents are described as having sudden changes of social skill in their 70s. He's 70, and has lived hard; it would hardly be surprising. His heart is as vile as it always was, but his mouth is now a sewer for reasons he can't control. We should, in part, pity him. "All political careers end in failure", and all that.

grinkle · 28/04/2016 18:23

You are too kind to Ken. He's not senile, he's always been an anti-Semite but has been emboldened by years of getting away with it and knowing that he has Corbyn's support. So he feels invulnerable.

What we saw today was the true Ken, the mask just slipped a bit further than it does usually. He can see his allies being attacked and he doesn't like it. It may well make him a martyr for his particular, anti-Semitic cause, unfortunately, but he might be happy with that.

A very, very unpleasant individual.

grinkle · 28/04/2016 18:27

Absolutely fantastic article here:

www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/04/when-it-comes-labour-and-anti-semitism-there-s-only-so-much-left-wing-jew-can

Although I'm hopeful, in that 2020 is still 4 years away - a lot can happen in that time, and I think those of us who care about having a government that is both left-wing and non-racist can, with some effort on our part, ensure that the necessary debate is had so that Labour (or another left-wing party, if Labour cannot and will not deal with its demons) is electable.

grinkle · 28/04/2016 18:32

From my own family's experience, when I look back at the rise of the Nazis, if you ask that inevitable question, 'How could the Holocaust have been avoided?', the answer is obvious. By objecting much earlier, by showing zero tolerance from the start to any anti-Semitism, by being eternally vigilant for the oldest hatred and not, ever, letting the anti-Semites' hateful views go unchallenged.

I challenge, and will continue to challenge, these views. On the left, or on the right, wherever they are to be found.

DarlingCherieLiebling · 28/04/2016 19:11

Excellent post Ricardian.

JewryMember · 28/04/2016 19:43

Personally I cannot grasp how any atheist can call themselves a Jew when Jewish culture revolves around God (but that's another thread).

Helmetbymidnight · 28/04/2016 20:08

Keep on challenging grinkle Flowers

grinkle · 28/04/2016 20:14

Thank you, helmet and puzzled.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 28/04/2016 20:46

Once again it's interesting to see the often-implied message that jews somehow don't understand what's being said: "I'm not anti-semitic, no honest not me, it's their government I'm talking about ..." and so on

I don't doubt that sometimes it really IS about policy rather than something more sinister; however it's hard not to notice that when other groups complain about discrimination, we're all expected to accept their narrative in its entirety, with anyone who dares to raise a question accused of not appreciating their privilege, racism or worse

So why is it so often different for jews?

MyBeloved · 28/04/2016 21:48

Thank you so much for this thread. And yes, watching the antisemitic dominoes topple is both exhausting, depressing and satisfying (validating). Perhaps one day people really will view antisemitism for what it actually is and stop placing 'buts' etc to excuse it somehow tacked on the end...I do hope so. At least there is Israel now - and we actually challenge and fight antisemitism at the root. We must be strong. Never again must absolutely mean never again. Every generation and all that...

Helmetbymidnight · 28/04/2016 22:00

I just saw some of the racist tweets Luciana Berger gets. twitter.com/lucianaberger/status/725635171295330304

Its astounding.

Still, I'm sure as so many posters like to say, she is just a silly lady (liar) who is confusing criticism of the state of Israel with anti-semitism.

JewryMember · 28/04/2016 22:36

Grinkle Thanks

Those tweets have made me feel ill.

grinkle · 28/04/2016 22:50

Thanks for the trigger warning; I shall avoid reading those tweets.

Interesting comments in the Guardian politics blog:

"
Sadiq Khan, Labour’s candidate for London mayor, has joined those in the party denouncing Livingstone. His intervention suggests party candidates up for election next week may be worried about the damage this affair will do to their chances. On the PM programme earlier Robert Shrimsley, managing editor of FT.com, said that the antisemitism row had persuaded him to change his voting plans in London. He was going to vote for Khan on the grounds he was the best candidate, Shrimsley said. But he said that he has now decided, as a Jew, that he could not vote Labour. Shrimsley repeated an argument he used in his FT column (subscription).

[Khan] is the favourite to be the next mayor of London; he has run the better campaign for the post and is probably the best candidate. By last weekend, I had concluded that he deserved my vote. Today, however, I know that he cannot have it because right now it is simply impossible to see how Jews can vote for a Labour party that does not appear to like them ...

Labour has a problem with anti-Semitism and a leader who does not seem to care enough about it. Until now my religious background has never been a factor in how I voted. But Mr Corbyn has turned me into a “political Jew”. I, like many British Jews, now feel as I imagine the gay community must have done when Margaret Thatcher passed the homophobic section 28 — that one of the two main parties has turned against me."
grinkle · 28/04/2016 22:57

How a mainstream left-of-centre British political party managed to get itself into the position that it is so associated with racism that even its supporters won't vote it for any more, is unthinkable.

forkhandles4candles · 28/04/2016 22:57

Ricardian, you have compete tell twisted what Livingstone said. How can there be any sensible debate?

bobthebuddha · 28/04/2016 23:02

This is an interesting article & not without hope. The shitstorm on Twitter, on Owen Jones' feed for instance, not so much.

forkhandles4candles · 28/04/2016 23:48

Livingstone stated that Hitler "was supporting Zionism" and that is accurate....reputable history books exore the transfer agreement and other collaborations between German Zionists and the Nazis in the first years of the regime. Indeed Israeli president Netanyahu was referring to similar issues at the World Zionist Congress last year, though twisted his points into an anti-muslim one, blaming them for the holocaust. It seems Impossible to actually have any historical, rational debate on these matters. German Zionists and Nazis had certain interests in common, if for very different reasons....getting Jews out of Germany into a Jewish Land. But no, let us say instead that KL said Hitler was a good man blah blah ...utter tosh. And let the Labour Right regroup and oust Corbyn and all those hypocrites who have never lifted a finger against racism can smugly crow on about their outrage. Sickening.

forkhandles4candles · 28/04/2016 23:52

For further reference, see , www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=23871

And yes, I am a Jew, if that matters.

ThisCakeFilledIsle · 29/04/2016 00:01

I do not know the details ken l and forkhandles refer to , however Hitler made an agreement with Chamberlain promising peace for our time.

Actions speak louder than words.

ProfessorPreciseaBug · 29/04/2016 00:07

I used to work in Hackney. In my work, I met a number of orthodox jews who had emigrated to Stamford Hill......... From Israel. Not in huge numbers, but still a few.

They told me they had left Israel because they couldn't stand Israelis and
Israel. Some may try to portray such an idea as antisemitic.. I would not like to try and accuse an orthodox jew of being amtisemitic.

I do think there is a difference between antisemitic hatred of jewish people and a profound disquiet about the conduct of the state of Israel.