Labour and anti-semitism

[LeLaluifleur]

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

I really don't know how much more evidence is needed to prove that Labour has an issue with antisemitism. Gerry Dowling, Vicki Kirby, at least two councillors, abuse suffered by Luciana Berger, the Oxford U antisemitism row. If the Tories have an equivalent problem why hasn't it been exposed by the progressive media?

What nails it for me is the disproportionate criticism Israel gets. I have no problem with criticism of Israel's conduct or even anti Zionism. But there's an overlap which is very evident on social media where the word Zionist is almost a proxy for Jew.

The other thing is this: why is the criticism of Israel so selective. Why doesn't turkey get equal grief for its treatment of Kurds? I see Saudi Arabia used as a comparator a lot but no one mentions the horror that is Iran. I wonder why that is and I think there's a clue that Corbyn goes on Iranian Press TV, as does gorgeous George Galloway, Yvonne Ridley even has her own show!

I know of no state that consistently has its legality questioned. I know of no democratic state which is subject to boycott and is labelled a global pariah. Perhaps posters like Bertrand and Ophelia might like to think how those British Jews who have an emotional connection to Israel feel when, at your average middle class dinner party the subject of Israel comes up again and again.

I'm not Jewish but my partner is and expresses it thus: "I thought this stuff was over. I never thought our son would have to go through what I went through".

Is there anyone on the thread who wants to discuss the article and the subject generally and what should be done about it?

"Perhaps posters like Bertrand and Ophelia might like to think how those British Jews who have an emotional connection to Israel feel when, at your average middle class dinner party the subject of Israel comes up again and again"

I do think about that. It's bloody awful. The Jewish people in my social circle feel conflicted and miserable about it. Just as the Irish people in my social circle and family feel/felt conflicted and miserable about The Troubles. Is that a reason not to talk about it? How will not talking about it help?

Good post, Marmite. Regarding your point about Corbyn going on Iranian TV (to which I would add his on-record comments praising Palestinian anti-semites) - I think this shows how completely normalised the heavily biased 'Palestinians/Muslims Good /Israel Bad' set of beliefs seems to have become in the further reaches of the Left. Corbyn becoming leader has almost accidentally brought this to national attention.

It was enlightening to read about the influence of Soviet anti-Israel propaganda on the far Left during the Cold War (in the article I linked on the previous page). I had previously been puzzled by why this should have particularly affected the far Left, more than any other elements of the left.

I've been looking again at the comments under one of Jonathan Freedland's articles about antisemitism, in the Guardian. I was really struck by the following comment, a number of pages in, because it was like a breath of fresh air:

"Anti Semitism is utterly loathsome and must be eradicated completely from the Labour Party. As a new member Im horrified to discover that it exists in the Labour Party at all and I may have to reconsider my membership if it turns out to be endemic in the party.... I can feel sympathy for the Palestinian people without endorsing the rocket attacks that they make on Israel in the same way that I sympathise with Israeli families that lose loved ones in such attacks without supporting their heavy handed incursions into Palestinian areas .....neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians are going away and the only solution to their difficulties is one of mutual co existence. Lets not forget either that Israel is a small nation state with its back to the sea and surrounded on all other sides by enemies who are all agreed on the desirability of its destruction..........."

The reason that comment stood out for me was because it was so unusual in its empathetic, balanced approach. In contrast, almost all the other comments from Corbyn supporters focus on: 1) Denying anti-semitism exists on the left; and 2) Talking about how appalling Israel's behaviour (and only Israel's behaviour) is.

There seemed to be no appreciation at all of the complexity and history of the situation, or that there is fault on both sides.

Just to add to my comment above, here is another comment from a Guardian reader that sheds some light on the matter:

"The problem I encountered when younger and attending left-wing rallies, was that people my age (at the time) appeared disconcertingly unaware of the anti-Semitic positions of some of the speakers. I watched a number of visiting Palestinian activists praise Hamas and Hezbollah in speeches, for example, and they were cheered by many of those in attendance. I was fortunate in that I'd spent enough time in the Middle East to know what those organisations were actually about (in terms of their general attitude to Jews and Judaism). What I encountered was a crime of ignorance, rather than genuine anti-Semitism. Many of the young left-wing activists I associated, simply didn't know what those speakers were about."

"I can feel sympathy for the Palestinian people without endorsing the rocket attacks that they make on Israel in the same way that I sympathise with Israeli families that lose loved ones in such attacks without supporting their heavy handed incursions into Palestinian areas ."

Out of interest, do people think there is any parity in these attacks? A similar death toll? Similar targets?

noone on the left pro palastine will ever respond to questions like as to why people focus so much on palastine but barelly mention the atrocities in ie iran, the murder of ie the yazidi people, other me nations who don't financially help palastinians because they don't really care about them as they are the tool that fuel the fire of antisemitism on their behalf and unite other ME nations (ie when sadam sent scud missiles to tel aviv to make the other ME nations back off from iraq), lebanons (not the only me nation) treatment of palastinians. at dcs school, the chapel was making a food collection to take to syria (dried goods). when i took my bag full of groceries to the chapel expecting it to be heaving, there were THREE bags of goods, THREE despite there being a very high percentage of muslim children in the school (i had only just caught the collection as i was late so this was it). if the collection was for palastinians the chapel would have been heaving. when dc saw me with my bag of food that morning, they asked me why i was bothering as (quote) noone else was

Certainly in the circles I move in the is lots of discussion about the hideous behaviour of many ME governments- and the has obviously been Western military intervention in some countries.

I'm just speculating here, but if there is disproportionate focus on the actions of the Israeli government, maybe it's because the world expected better? A shiny new country started with such high hopes reduced to bombing schools?

oh come on, that old chestnut. you only know what the media tells you, you quote the same old stuff. there is far far more to it than that but you have selective knowledge. the hospitals and schools get bombed because the rulers of palastine want the west know that people will hate israel for it. and yes, i think the bombing of civilians is bloody awful and no, i am not pro israel but i sit in the middle and can see terrible behaviour on BOTH sides but look deeper than the surface and what i am expected to think by having read the usual media cover

Thanks Kestrel, great article and yes there are atrocities on both sides.

you wouldn't expect other countries to sit back and get attacked which is what israel would have to do if they didn't bomb civilian targets. hamas have deliberately created hospitals, schools and the like as targets and use their own people as shields but the left are so quick to rush to the defence of hamas and deny this. the same left that on mn would always jump down the throat of any poster who voiced their concern about the possible effect of having so many me/wa men coming into the west with regard to women but then look what happened in cologne

I don't think I understand your last post, getting.........are you saying that the Israeli army are not bombing Palestinian civilians?

And i definitely don't understand that post- what has Cologne got to do with it?

There's just so much corruption on all sides really and people don't want to die, or send their loved ones to die, for that. We went through all that in WW2 (and WW1 and countless other wars) and didn't come out the other side very well at al even if we were the supposed victors. Many ongoing mental health issues among veterans and their families. So when there are calls for war, there is more of this sort of thing as people scramble around looking for someone to blame.

cologne has everything to do with it. the immediate denial on the left about anything negative even remotely connected to islam. you will deny that too. i have re read my post.nowhere did it say that israel didn't bomb civilians. it does but there is more to it than that. i am not going to get into an israel discussion as this op is not about israel. i never discuss israel on mn, least of all with a text book mn left poster such as yourself, the outcome and posts are so fucking predictable i could write your responses down before they have even happened. so long

Could I just suggest that if people don't understand someone else's post, it would be better (in the interests of discussion) to ask them to clarify, rather than to use the 'implication by question' fallacy.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_question

BR: oh come on. Are you really drawing equivalence between Israel/Palestine and The Troubles - in terms of their treatment by the bien pensant? I've certainly never heard anybody say 'Ireland should be ashamed of themselves' or 'the Catholics are the new Jews'. In the Islington circles I mix with it's de rigeur to hanker after a United Ireland (that bastion of multiculturalism) whilst decrying everything Israel (one of the most diverse countries in the world) stands for and does. Also I'm not aware of anybody threatening Ireland with no existence - unless you know something I don't.

Certainly in the circles I move in the is lots of discussion about the hideous behaviour of many ME governments- and the has obviously been Western military intervention in some countries.

Yeah but these never include Iran where there's been no western intervention since 1979. Nor Iraq or Afghanistan pre 9/11. Only when linked to the west. Funny that.

Out of interest, do people think there is any parity in these attacks? A similar death toll? Similar targets?

Is anyone else bored to death of this posting style? Why don't you just come out with it, Bertrand?


1. No, I'm not drawing equivalence between Ireland and Israel
2. No, I wasn't "implicating by question" - not consciously at least. I apologise if that's how it looked.
3. What do you want me to come out with, 39weeks?

I really am just trying to have a discussion.............

Bertrand - I don't think the Israelis are bombing Palestinians at the moment, as it happens.

Circles I move in spend our time discussing Kashmir - oh, hold on a minute! We don't, because we know naff all about it. I suspect your "circles" should take the same approach.

The last "exchange of fire" was in March, wasn't it? Or am I mistaken? No deaths on the Israeli side- two on the Palestinian. But of course the military activity has been scaled down massively this year,thankfully.

Right. You seem to be forgetting the not inconsiderable number of Israelis stabbed or shot. Many more of the security forces had not taken defensive action.

Getting back to the original topic read this and weep.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/02/05/the-holocaust-as-white-on-white-crime-and-other-signs-of-intellectual-decay/

Sorry "many more if ..."

Right. Before I post anything else., I need to ask a simple question. Have I been identified by other posters on here as an anti Semite?

Yes, Bertrand, but considering I've had to suck up the labels of supremacist and exceptionalist I can only suggest you get over it.