Labour and anti-semitism

[LeLaluifleur]

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

Misti

"Positioning one's group as "different" and "apart" (usually with a subtext that involves explicit criticism of others' morals or lifestyles or intellectual capacity or whatever) is not consistent with expectations that others must always treat you as equal. It's wanting your cake and eating it I'm afraid."

"There is nothing wrong, per se, with a refusal to "assimilate" (though it depends what precisely you mean by assimilate - obviously incoming groups have to comply with local laws, but they don't have to adopt local cultural practices)."

I'm having some trouble reconciling these two positions you have expressed (especially if you leave out the section in brackets). Could you explain further?

With regard to the section in brackets, do you think it applies to the Jewish community? Because I'm not sure it does. If anything, it would be much more applicable to some Islamic groups and beliefs, especially the points about morality and lifestyle. (Again, I am trying to make a point here about double standards.)

Kesstrel: sorry if I didn't express myself very clearly :(

Like I said, I think it partly depends what you mean by assimilating. Some people think that assimilation involves a wholesale rejection of ethnic cultural values and adoption of the dominant culture, I don't agree. Before I left the UK I lived in some pretty multicultural parts of London where people generally rubbed along OK despite differences in their cultural backgrounds. Now I live as an immigrant abroad, and as a family we retain parts of our English culture but have adopted local practices for some things. Are we "assimilated"?

It's a question of degree and "more assimilated" isn't necessarily better than "less assimilated". By assimilating completely, you gain but you also lose. It's up to individuals to make that judgement, with the proviso that you cannot demand the benefits of assimilation without accepting the obligations.

The second point, about how groups view and "position" themselves, is a rather different one. You can retain parts of your culture without thinking that it's superior to local culture (I speak English to my kids, but not out of a belief that it's a better language than the local one!). The issue arises when failure to assimilate arises from a fundamental belief in the superiority of your own group. Obviously this tends to be more of an issue in religious groups, where there is a natural tendency to think that your religion is right/ best (that's the nature of faith) - but you see exceptionalism in nationalist groups too. For eg, you'll see british expats in Europe planning to vote for brexit, in the certainty that the natives would be absolutely mad to kick out such jolly spiffing chaps as them.

I don't know that any of this applies to Jewish groups more than others - actually my sense is that outside very orthodox populations it doesn't really apply at all. However Zionism as I understand it (ie the belief that Israel is the promised land of God's chosen people) is certainly an "exceptionalist" point of view in my opinion. (Note that I'm not saying that there aren't other reasons to support the continued existence of Israel.)

Misti, OK, I think I understand now, and your position makes sense.

I think my concern is that on the left, some people who might agree with your point that "you cannot demand the benefits of assimilation without accepting the obligations." would be much less likely to apply that judgment to Muslim sub-cultures than they would to Jewish ones. Similarly, some people who are concerned about zionist beliefs (as you have defined them - I know the meaning is disputed) would never complain about the inherent supremacism of Islamic beliefs, and indeed would be quite likely to shout down anyone who did as "Islamophobic".

This is how I think modern anti-semitism on the left tends to express itself - in the form of double standards.

spot on misti

no, i meant kess

kesstrel I think sometimes there is an assumption to double standards where none exist. This is a thread about Zionism but there has still been some "what about the muslims" whataboutery, as if it's impossible to simultaneously condemn exceptionalism wherever it occurs.

That said, I do think that Labour's approach to Islam is sometimes compromised by what one might call electoral imperatives - but this isn't at all unusual in politics. Politicians routinely kowtow to interest groups if there is enough funding or votes at stake. That's wrong but if you want to condemn the Labour Party you also have to condemn both American parties for their stance on Israel, the Tory party for their cosy relationship with the Saudis etc.

This wasn't a thread about Zionism. The op was about antisemitism. Your comment speaks fucking volumes. You say Muslims always get drawn in to it. SO DOES FUCKING ISRAEL FFS

This is a thread about Zionism

No, it is a thread about anti-semitism in the british left. Despite some people attempting to divert it from that path.

but there has still been some "what about the muslims" whataboutery,

If the form that anti-semitism takes is a double standard, in which Jews and/or the Jewish state are criticised / demonised for things that other groups are not, then it is impossible to show this without reference to those other groups. In England, the group that is most comparable to Jews in this respect is Muslims. Both groups feature distinct religious beliefs and distinct ethnicities and cultures, and in both cases states exist that represent themselves as Jewish or Islamic states, respectively.

To dismiss this as "whataboutery" is to attempt to invalidate my argument about double standards. I don't accept that it is invalid.

as if it's impossible to simultaneously condemn exceptionalism wherever it occurs.

Nonsense, no one has argued that. And the whole point I have been trying to make is that some elements of the Left are not "condemning exceptionalism wherever it occurs". Instead they are demonising Israelis (and sometimes Jews) while ignoring similar problems with Islamic states and Muslims, or even crying "Islamophobia" when such problems are pointed out.

This is a thread about Zionism

Sigh.

"This is a thread about Zionism"

Misti- was that a typo? Your post doesn't really make sense if it wasn't.....

Kesstrel, your post of 12.58 was spot-on.

Mistri, your terror of insulting Islam is laughable.

I did suggest we try to avoid insulting each other- is anyone else on board with that?

..and yet you cared not that I was accused of being supremacist/exceptionalist and indeed have encouraged other posters to ignore me. You - and others - have been incredibly insulting towards me, and all because I brought God into the debate. Do you think I invented the notion of God's chosen people? Because I really didn't, you know.

Can someone please confirm who the poster was that introduced the notion that (a subgroup of) Jews have a higher IQ than any other ethnic group?

"and yet you cared not that I was accused of being supremacist/exceptionalist and indeed have encouraged other posters to ignore me. You - and others - have been incredibly insulting towards me, and all because I brought God into the debate. Do you think I invented the notion of God's chosen people? Because I really didn't, you know"

I suggested other posters ignore you because you were saying things that I am sure most Jewish people would find embarrassing. I was hoping we could move back to the political discussion we were having, and that you might join in that discussion. I am not the only poster who thought your marks constituted supremacy/exceptionalism- and indeed it's hard to read them any other way. It's nothing to do with you bringing God into it- you are guided by your God, I'm not. But this makes no difference at all to a discussion about anti semitism and the Left. It would be great to get back to that, and forget the ad hominems. There have been loads of interesting posts......

I've just read this article, which is think is really perceptive and well argued:

fathomjournal.org/the-left-and-the-jews-time-for-a-rethink/

That's a really good article.

Don't think it will make much headway on MN where the same old posters:
aren't aware of rising anti semitism, deny the overlap in anti-semitism and anti-zionism, insinuate anti semitism is mostly a device to silence critics of Israel

or think that Jews think that you are anti-semitic if you believe that Palestinians have rights.
Or think mentioning the problem of Muslim extremism means you are some kind of Muslim-hating, Hitler lover racist (and other deleted comments)

But thank you for posting anyway. Good stuff.

Great article posted by Kesstrel.

For those surprised to learn I was not Jewish: 'Some Christians have actively supported the return of Jews to Palestine even prior to the rise of Zionism, as well as subsequently. Anita Shapira, a history professor emerita at Tel Aviv University, suggests that evangelical Christian restorationists of the 1840s 'passed this notion on to Jewish circles'.[162] It was common among the Puritans to anticipate and frequently to pray for a Jewish return to their homeland.[163] One of the principal Protestant teachers who promoted the biblical doctrine that the Jews would return to their national homeland was John Nelson Darby. His doctrine of dispensationalism is credited with promoting Zionism, following his 11 lectures on the hopes of the church, the Jew and the gentile given in Geneva in 1840.[164] However, others like C H Spurgeon,[165] both Horatius[166] and Andrew Bonar, Robert Murray M'Chyene,[167] and J C Ryle[168] were among a number of prominent proponents of both the importance and significance of a Jewish return, who were not dispensationalist. Pro-Zionist views were embraced by many evangelicals and also affected international foreign policy.'

Do you suppose any of the above Christian Zionists were commanded to leave 'the sky fairy' out of their discussions? Told that they were thick or supremacist or exceptionalist when they referred to the Old Testament?

I'm pretty appalled by the attempts by some on here to close me down by accusing me of derailing the thread. I did not introduce the IQ of Jews to the debate, but once the intellectual superiority of a subgroup of Jews was confirmed I added my thoughts.

I suggested other posters ignore you because you were saying things that I am sure most Jewish people would find embarrassing. Really? Martin Luther King was a Christian Zionist. Do you suppose he was an embarrassment to jews?

I am not the only poster who thought your marks constituted supremacy/exceptionalism- and indeed it's hard to read them any other way. Only if you are a left wing anti-Semitic anti-Zionist atheist.

That article looks very interesting. I'll read it properly after dinner and Masterchef.

"I did suggest we try to avoid insulting each other- is anyone else on board with that?"

That's a "No" then..................

Bertrand, I am not insulting you; read the article and then tell me I don't have a point.

Insults, Bertrand? There are no insults on mumsnet.

I'm baffled, perhaps you could find some very clear examples of insults - with links - I'm sure if you report them they will be deleted.

i also found the many comments that followed the actual article very interesting to read..

I think this explains the overlap of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism:

^'...Crucially, parts of the Left – by no means all – failed to adapt to this great rupture in world history. This is all-important, for it utterly transformed the political meaning of ‘anti-Zionism’. Anti-Zionism meant one thing in the early 20th century: an argument among Jews, mostly, about how best to meet the threat of antisemitism. Anti-Zionism has come to mean something entirely different after the Holocaust and after the creation of the State of Israel in 1948: it has come to mean a programme of comprehensive hostility to all but a sliver of world Jewry, a programme for the eradication of actually existing Jewish self-determination.

Things got even worse. This post-Holocaust, post-Israel left-wing Anti-Zionism has been converging with some forms of Arab nationalism and even political Islamism – which are both now coded as singularly progressive. The Left has its own version of Orientalism which infantalises the Palestinians and Arabs, puts them beyond criticism, and makes them the subject of endless western left-wing delusions. For example, take Jeremy Corbyn’s truly incredible claim that Hamas and Hezbollah are ‘bringing about long-term peace and social justice and political justice in the whole region.’^

^When you prop up the basic lie of anti-Zionism (that the conflict is about the “Palestinians” lacking a state), you have ALREADY capitulated to contemporary European anti-Semitism, which is premised on the demented notion that the Jews have become the “oppressors” (i.e. the “Nazis”), and the Palestinians the “oppressed” (i.e. the “new Jews”).

The lie that the centuries-long Arab war against the Middle Eastern Jews is all about “Palestinian” “frustration” is the main pillar of European anti-Semitism today.^

Absolutely spot-on.

[Do we] expect any other nation in the world to surrender a huge buffer zone to Muslim jihadists, other than the Jew among the nations?