Labour and anti-semitism

[LeLaluifleur]

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

Hmm. Difficult one.

What would you call a person who sees a thread about racism and first thing she says is:

a. You've got it wrong. (Or, you've got it wrong deliberately: that's always charming.)
b. Says to some posters, 'FFS whataboutery', yet is happy to engage in her own going off the subject when she likes.
c. Pleads that she wants a discussion antisemitism - but has already said 'what's there to discuss?' and then returns back to her favourite subject - Israel and the Palestinians.
d. Claims in a previous thread that she knows what Jewish people think re. Israel. (They all think the same, right!)
d. Loves the Jewish people when they are cute and funny like say the mum in Friday night supper!!

e. But is committed to the basic principle that Jewish people must never ever have a homeland.

Speaking for myself, if it walks like a duck....

Right. 39, you have told me in the past that I post the way I do because I hate God, so you'll forgive me if I don't actually take your assessment terribly seriously.

Helmet. That is a complete misrepresentation of my thoughts, opinions and, indeed, posts.

But I now know that it is absolutely no use me posting any more on this thread. I do hope that one day there will be a thread on the subject where proper discussion is possible. This obviously isn't it. I might even start one. The subject of anti semitism in the Labour Party and, indeed in all British institutions is an important one. A point which gets lost once the ad hominems begin.

The more I think about it the issue that gets to the core of this is this: the thrust in the last 20 years or so has been to listen to the core concerns of minorities and allow them to define what constitutes racism in their eyes. Jews, it seems to me, are the one minority who are not afforded that entitlement, at least by the left. I think, if the majority of Jews are saying 'I'm experiencing this as antisemitism' why is this different from any other minority. There's two very obvious responses: a) Israel b) the far left and cultural left no longer consider Jews a minority.

Start a thread about Israel then. I'm sure you'll get the debate you want there.

Don't jump into every thread about anti-semitism - when you clearly don't want to know anything about it - and then insist posters declare their stance on Netanyahu.

The subject of anti semitism in the Labour Party and, indeed in all British institutions is an important one.

What a shame then that right near the start of this thread, you wrote, what more is there to say? Anyone would have thought you didn't think it was important to have a discussion.

Marmite,, thanks for the interesting article. Having grown up in the U.S., and been a student radical in my time, it is really depressing to see the way things have changed, and what is now acceptable.

Damn. I can't stop myself defending myself.

When I said "What more is there it say?" it was in direct relation to a very specific incident which was being investigated. Not in relation to anti semitism in the labour party In general. Here is my post. I said that the people who were accused of making the comments were rightly suspended and are being investigated. If they said them they should be disciplined by the Party and by the law if it is hate speech. What more is there to say?

Will you please stop misrepresenting me?

When I said "What more is there it say?" it was in direct relation to a very specific incident which was being investigated. Not in relation to anti semitism in the labour party In general. Here is my post. I said that the people who were accused of making the comments were rightly suspended and are being investigated. If they said them they should be disciplined by the Party and by the law if it is hate speech. What more is there to say?

Well, I certainly realised that your comment was about that specific incident.

What puzzled me, however, was why you appeared to think there was "no more to say" about that incident -- for example, about whether it was symptomatic of a wider problem with antisemitism in the labour party and whether it was being handled appropriately.

Cheers Kestrel. I'm in the HR business and tend to look at things evidentially. That post really nailed it for me and suggests there us something happening on both sides of the Atlantic and a growing antisemitism.

What puzzled me, however, was why you appeared to think there was "no more to say" about that incident -- for example, about whether it was symptomatic of a wider problem with antisemitism in the labour party and whether it was being handled appropriately."

I just can't see the point in continuing to discuss a specific case that was, apparantly, being dealt with by the party hierarchy. There will be more to discuss when the investigation reports. There is a lot to be said about what's going on in the Left in particular and society in general.

I've been re-reading this thread (accompanied I must admit by a large bar of Galaxy) and unless I've missed something, Finance Committee realised no one has mentioned Stop the War. There's a school of thought that Labour have been hijacked by StW, handily facilitated by the fact that Jeremy Corbyn was its Chair and remains the Vice-Chair. The current chair is Andrew Murray, a virulently anti-Zionist. The StW website has carried at least two infamous posts on Israel, one that advocates an one state solution right of return for all Palestinians, another declaring, I kid you not, that war should be declared against Israel. These posts have been deleted from their website but have been archived for posterity. Corbyn has never renounced his views or the views of StW. So if you accept that most Jews have an emotional attachment to Israel (and anyone who's been to a bar mitzvah will attest to that) how on earth could they feel comfortable in the party as is currently constituted?

Sorry some typos there.

Did anyone see Danny Cohen's comments in The Times yesterday?
"You can't be Jewish and back Corbyn,...it's like a Muslim voting for Trump"

That's...strong, isn't it.

Well, it's a bit over the top, but an understandable emotional reaction, I think.

It would be interesting to know how much Muslim anti-semitism is influencing labour party activists. The recent Channel 4 poll shows:

'More than a quarter of respondents felt Jews were “responsible for most wars,” compared to a 6 per cent average across the UK, while almost four in ten felt Jews had “too much control over global affairs,” compared to a ten per cent average over the general population.

The survey also showed that 34 per cent “don’t care what happens to anyone but their own kind,” with the same percentage thought that “Jews still talk too much about the Holocaust”.

Elsewhere, three in ten said Jews “think they are better than other people” and four in ten said Jews were “more loyal to Israel than to the UK,” but only a quarter felt anti-Semitism was a problem in the UK.'

www.jewishnews.co.uk/disturbing-results-revealed-in-poll-of-uk-muslim-attitudes-towards-jews/

Marmite59

"Perhaps posters like Bertrand and Ophelia might like to think how those British Jews who have an emotional connection to Israel feel when, at your average middle class dinner party the subject of Israel comes up again and again.

I'm not Jewish but my partner is and expresses it thus: "I thought this stuff was over. I never thought our son would have to go through what I went through"."

Ditto. The 'average middle class dinner party' is something we tend to avoid these days. The subject just comes up out of the blue after a couple of bottles of wine and DH has repeatedly been expected to 'explain Israel' as if simply by virtue of his (atheist) Judaism he has to justify its existence.

I always want to ask the "I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm anti-Zionist" what exactly they mean by "anti-Zionist"? Increasingly, to the really rabid, 'Zionist' or the charming "Zio" simply means "Jew." I heard a caller to (I think) LBC a few months ago start talking about the "Jews" and then quickly correct himself to "Zionists." However people protest, there is a contingent that completely conflates the two, its expanding and many, many, are in total denial about this. For Corbyn to start harking back to his mother being at Cable St is utterly irrelevant and a symptom of this denial. His defence of that awful CofE vicar Sizer (and his brother for that matter) speaks volumes.

Thanks BtB. I'm glad to know we're not alone. I recall one evening when the subject of 9/11 came up swiftly followed by the topic of teenagers absconding to ISIS. Guess which got the more sympathetic hearing. I feel like I'm constantly in edit mode, careful what I say and how I sound. The worst thing is I'm solid Labour but cannot possibly vote for them with this dangerous unhinged demagogue is the leader.

Glad to know we're not alone, too!

On the subject of Zionism many interpret it as a simple attachment to Israel or a commitment to its existence. But the term, certainly in leftist circles, has come to mean s commitment to aggressive expansionism at the expense of the Palestinians.
I always come back to this: why isn't there a meaningful Kurdistan movement in the uk? Where are the petitions and boycotts for Iran? Where was Corbyn when Russia was bombing hospitals in Syria in the name of Assad? I just can't get through this double standard. Some will no doubt say that's whataboutery but it's not: it's about selective double standards that singles out Israel and by extension Jews for special treatment.

I'll end with this; when Ahmed Coulibaly gunned down 5 people in the Paris hyper market in Jan 2015 did he say this is because I hate Jews? No, he said 'this is for Palestine'.

I'm late to this thread but what's all this stuff about George Osborne changing his name got to do with anything? He's not Jewish. He just didn't like the name Gideon when he was a child.

I admit I am confused when people mean exactly when they say they are anti-Zionist. Many people might be highly critical of the Israeli government's policies, but still support the country's existence - Jeremy Corbyn has said he does, so does that make him a Zionist?

Just as accusations of anti-Semitism can be used to deflect legitimate criticism of Israel, I also think that a (hopefully small minority) of people may use the term "anti-Zionism" to deflect attention away from their anti-Semitism.

Owen Jones wrote a good article on this topic last year. "It is a menace: not just in its overt forms, but in subtler, pernicious forms too. There’s no excuse for the left to downplay it, or to pretend it doesn’t exist within its own ranks. Rather than being defensive, the left should seize any opportunity to confront the cancer of antisemitism and eradicate it for good."

Rather than being defensive,

And yet, under an article about anti-semitism and the left in the Guardian, 95% of the comments from people on the left always are defensive. It is very, very rare to see someone simply say: "Any signs of anti-semitism that raise their heads must be stamped out." Instead, they either deny the problem could possibly exist, or take the opportunity to complain about 'Zionists' using claims of anti-semitism to shut down debate. Now, I'm sure the latter happens, but it's very worrying when people seem to think that's more important, and more worth talking about, than the issue of anti-semitism itself.

I am happy to say that any signs of anti semitism that raise their heads should be stamped out.

But it should also be possible to criticize the behaviour of the government of Israel without being automatically called anti Semitic.

How can this be achieved?

Jeremy Corbin said it too"

""Anti-Semitism is absolutely abhorrent and wrong. Anyone that commits any act of anti-Semitism, that makes anti-Semitic remarks, is auto excluded from the party and an inquiry follows immediately.

We have suspended, we will suspend, any member that behaves in that way."

Obviously he isn't doing enough, but he has said it.

But it should also be possible to criticize the behaviour of the government of Israel without being automatically called anti Semitic.

Oh it's very easy.

You do actually criticise the Israeli govt. You don't call out the state of Israel. You don't call it a pariah state or a terrorist state. You practice equivalence with other states where oppression or whatever exists. You don't support a boycott whilst expressing ersatz ignorance (actually flagrant disregard) for others countries equally deserving of sanction. You don't call Jews for whom Israel has a special place in their heart 'Zionists' or 'Zios'. You qualify your criticism with an understanding of what it must be like to live with daily stabbing attacks (and no doubt you've just seen the news re the Jerusalem bus). You see Hamas for what it is: an antisemitic terrorist organisation who are dedicated to the extermination of Israel. You understand what the joyous slogan 'from the river to the sea Palestine will be free' really means and why it is disgusting. You perhaps even have an inkling of the fears I experience daily about my son being attacked because people hate him. An 8 year old. Who's Jewish.

Do all of those things and it's fine. See how easy it is?

Gosh. Well, I did all of those things, but have still be dismissed as anti Semitic. So I think it might be a bit harder than you think.

But it should also be possible to criticize the behaviour of the government of Israel without being automatically called anti Semitic. How can this be achieved?

To claim that this happens "automatically" implies without exception. Yet threads on the Guardian are full of comments criticising the Israeli government that have not been called anti-Semitic.

In my opinion, this kind of hyperbole is unjustified. It seeks to exaggerate the problem, to give it the appearance of being of equal weight and importance with the issue of anti-semitism.

By continually bringing it up, whenever anti-semitism is mentioned, it is used to try to push the discussion away from the anti-semitism itself, towards this more palatable topic. This tactic can be seen not just on this thread, but on the Guardian website as well.

I think how we as tolerant people deal with intolerant people is one of the biggest issues we face in the West, and in one way it's unsurprising that Labour hasn't got the answer either. However, what we have seen is them capitulating to intolerable demands eg. women separated in some political meetings, and it sometimes appears that they will bend over backwards for the intolerant.

Muslim anti-semitism IS a growing problem. Kesstrel's data illuminates that. Anti-semitic literature has been found in some Muslim schools. Ex-radicals have talked about how widespread anti-semitic talk is in some communities. The answer to that is not to scream/deny/challenge - 'you lying, racist, daily mail reading scumbag', like a PP tried to do. Nor just to pretend it is not happening: (like the Guardian seem to when dealing with anything related to the Muslim community)
For me, the answer is two-fold: education/education/education/which includes reaching out across the communities and also greater punishment/less tolerance for those people who break the laws.