Labour and anti-semitism

[LeLaluifleur]

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

This thread is helping me sort out my thoughts about left-wing anti-semitism, but I am still interested in the question of where it comes from.

LeLaluifleur You wrote earlier: Maybe to some Labour, lefty, or socialist minded politicians Jewish people are not 'underdog' enough.

One thing that has occurred to me is this: there are a lot of people on the left who won't accept that intelligence has a strong genetic component. But Ashkenazi (European) Jews have exceptionally high average intelligence (for verbal intelligence, the average is startlingly high), and this appears to be genetically based. This high level of intelligence is the best explanation for their high level of success professionally and financially.

But if, as a leftist, you refuse to believe this explanation, what explanations are you left with? The obvious answers are nepotism, tribalism, cheating, manipulation - all the things Jewish people have been accused of over the years.

I agree to Kestrel about Israel. Where else did the Jews have to go. They were kicked out in the first place but I know that was 2000 years ago.

Kesstrel thank you for your thought provoking and interesting thoughts.

Of course, intelligence is determined in part by people's genes but are also fostered by nurture and adequate stimulation during the early years. I suppose it is difficult to discuss the genetic aspect of intelligence among left-wingers as this would undermine the (socialist?) notions of "everyone is the 'same'" and takes away choice from the individual.

Envy has always featured in the persecution of European Jews. Have you ever been to the Holocasut museum in Berlin? it is amazing, impressive and beautifully put together, I recommend it.

Sidetracking a bit here, but I have been thinking about Human rights and that it is interesting that alongside universal Human rights, there are no universal Human 'duties' or 'laws'. `Don't get me wrong, human rights were an important development after WWII but where there are rights, there must be responsibilities... not sure if I am articulating this well, I am thinking about my generation (born in the 70ies) and later generations have grown up believing the world owes them but they don't owe the world... It seems a bit infantile.

Absolutely spot-on, Kesstrel.

The Left disregard anyone not underdog enough and love to hate privilege, even when that privilege has been assigned by a God they do not believe in and despise.

"This high level of intelligence is the best explanation for their high level of success professionally and financially."

Really? If such success is real and measurable (not saying it isn't- but I don't know the figures) I would put it down to a cultural commitment to education, and to the fact that people who traditionally have been on the outskirts of mainstream society either work their way out of it or sink without trace. The same phenomenon is obvious in the immigrant communities in the UK at the moment.

"The Left disregard anyone not underdog enough and love to hate privilege, even when that privilege has been assigned by a God they do not believe in and despise"

I don't understand this at all.

Jews are a privileged race; God's chosen people. Their intelligence is God-given; God has equipped them to rise up from continued persecution and to succeed in ways no other minority can.

Oh, right.

"While only about 2% of the U.S. population is of full Ashkenazi Jewish descent,[2] 27% of United States Nobel prize winners in the 20th century,[2][3] 25% of Fields Medal winners,[4] 25% of ACM Turing Award winners,[2] 9 out of the 19 world chess champions, and a quarter of Westinghouse Science Talent Search winners have either full or partial Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry.[4] However, such statistics do not rule out factors other than intelligence, such as institutional biases and social networks[citation needed].

"The average IQ score of Ashkenazi Jews has been calculated to be 112–115 (Cochran et al.),[8] and 107–115 (Murray; Entine).[9][10][11] These measurements place them as the ethnic/racial group with the highest IQ in the world.[citation needed] A study found that Ashkenazi Jews had only mediocre visual-spatial intelligence, while their verbal IQ (which includes verbal reasoning, comprehension, working memory, and mathematical computation) compensated for this with a high median of 125.6."

There are many groups that have a cultural commitment to education, but they don't produce figures like that. There is, I am afraid, no longer any question among psychologists that IQ is partially heritable.

However, the same Wikipedia article goes on to say:

However, such statistics do not rule out factors other than intelligence, such as institutional biases and social networks[citation needed]. Pretty much what I was saying, with regard to "alternative explanations" that reflect badly on Jewish people.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence

Thirtynine

If God gave Jewish people their exceptional intelligence, why did he only give it to the Ashkenazis, not to the Sephardim?

I'm sorry, but the exceptionalist attitude you have expressed here is precisely the kind of thing that fuels anti-semitic prejudice. Believe it if you want, but you aren't doing Jewish people any favours by making that argument. And there are plenty of Jewish people who absolutely would not agree with you.

I think we're getting into quite murky waters here. I assume that we simply disregard the "God gave his some of chosen people super brains argument?--

Frankly, regardless of ethnicity/nationality/religion, having a high IQ is absolutely no guarantee of worldly success.

I don't actually know whether Jewish people are notably more successful than non Jewish people. But if there are, there are plenty of reasons that they might be that do not reflect badly on them. And even if one of those is netotism, then let he who is without sin............! This is, after all, the country of the old boy network.

And even if one of those is netotism, then let he who is without sin............! This is, after all, the country of the old boy network*.

Not an argument that is likely to win favour with many on the left. Which is an illustration of the point I was making. It's all too easy to let hatred of Tory toffs extend to other groups that are perceived as being unfairly privileged. As LeLaluifleur said above, envy has always played a part in anti-semitism.

Sorry, that was a throwaway remark. That'll teach me to be facetious. The rest of my post still stands, though.

kesstrel That Cochran study is generally considered by population geneticists to be bad science, no? It's a very big assertion for which very strong evidence (eg from twin studies) would be required. The bigger your claim, the more evidence you need, and this is an absolute whopper as scientific claims go!

Jews are a privileged race; God's chosen people. Their intelligence is God-given; God has equipped them to rise up from continued persecution and to succeed in ways no other minority can.

I assume that was said with tongue firmly in cheek? If not, then count me out. What a depressing world we live in, if someone can still, more than 70 years after 1945, argue with a straight face that one racial group is inherently superior to others.

Kesstrel, the Sephardim are hardly thick, are they?

Genetics manifest themselves in superior form everywhere: look at Jamaican & Kenyan runners. Intelligence is largely inherited. Kenyans & Jamaicans are the fastest runners on the planet. Jews are the most intelligent.

"Jews are a privileged race; God's chosen people. Their intelligence is God-given; God has equipped them to rise up from continued persecution and to succeed in ways no other minority can."

no idea what you're on about.

i agree with Kestrel's response to your post.

Intelligence certainly has a genetic component. But intelligence is a multi-factor, construct (it has no absolute meaning) that is measured using very imperfect and unreliable statistical tests with a strong cultural bias.

It's absolutely different to making relatively objective comparisons of speed and strength, as is the case in a sporting competition. However, even sporting competitions suffer from inherent bias if used to make population genetics arguments: there's no genetic reason why black people should perform poorly in sports such as cycling and skiing.

Those making "master race" arguments are very poorly placed to accuse anyone else of racism.

"Those making "master race" arguments are very poorly placed to accuse anyone else of racism."

I agree 100%

Could I suggest that nobody engages with ThirtyNineWeeks? She is either taking the piss or deluded or an agent provocateur. A not very good one.

Thirty-nine Sephardic Jews as a population are of average intelligence. Like most other educated populations on the planet.

Misti I don't want to get into a discussion about to what extent IQ and "intelligence" are different; that tends to involve a lot of semantics. IQ predicts enough positive outcomes related to educational attainment, etc to be a useful and reasonably reliable measure of something - we don't need to call it intelligence. As for cultural bias, that doesn't come into this specific question of the extent to which Ashkenazis as a group have higher average intelligence than, say, Europeans from similar cultures.

kesstrel Intelligence as measured by IQ tests is certainly correlated with certain educational, social and economic outcomes. However, it's not always clear which direction the correlation works in! If you were to test the children of any culturally and socially selective (but genetically diverse) group with higher than average levels of economic success (let's say city bankers, for the sake of argument) then you would undoubtedly find an average IQ well above that of the general population. While it is perfectly possible that a small inbred group could have a higher IQ than the general population, you'd need good twin studies to establish beyond doubt that the difference was a genetic one, and not down to sample bias or cultural/ socio-economic factors.

Just because I bring religion into the discussion (which, by the way, is the fundamental basis of Zionist politics) you want to close me down, Bertrand? Nice.

Read your bible - especially Ezekiel and Jeremiah.

Could I suggest that nobody engages with ThirtyNineWeeks?

You're like a playground bully: 'Don't talk to her, she's thick'.

That Cochran study is generally considered by population geneticists to be bad science, no?

The mechanism proposed in the Cochran paper is just that - a proposal - for which further evidence would be required. It could well be disconfirmed, but I believe the Wikipedia article I cited makes this clear.

However, there appear to be plenty of studies showing that an IQ differential exists. Given the extent to which heritability plays a part in IQ in general, it's not unreasonable to assume that heritability probably plays a role here as well.

But having said that, I don't think all this is really relevant to my original point. Whatever the actual reasons for Ashkenazi success, I believe that people who won't accept even the possibility that it could be genetically based will be more prone to looking for other, less innocent reasons beyond just 'they really value learning'.

Mistigri, if the success of the Jews is not largely down to their superior IQ then why do you think they are so feared?