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Labour and anti-semitism

999 replies

LeLaluifleur · 10/04/2016 09:15

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

Shock Sad

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 12/04/2016 13:31

I don't want to shut you down because you brought religion into it. I want to shut you down because you brought racial/ ethnic superiority into it.

ThirtyNineWeeks · 12/04/2016 13:41

Kesstrel, why are your posts acceptable and not mine, in terms of pointing out the superior intelligence of (in your argument only 'some') Jews? Can you spell it out for me, please, other than your obvious fear of the word 'superior'?

ThirtyNineWeeks · 12/04/2016 13:42

^^Same question to you, Bertrand.

ThirtyNineWeeks · 12/04/2016 13:43

Evelyn Waugh reported an old saying he picked up while travelling in the Near East that went something like this: It takes two Arabs to outsmart a Greek, two Greeks to outsmart a Jew, and two Jews to outsmart an Armenian. (Waugh was a big fan of Armenians.)

LeLaluifleur · 12/04/2016 13:43

ThirtyNineWeeks can you not see the irony? This is thread critically discussing anti-semitic activities in the Labour party and a potential head in the sand response by Labour leader Corbyn, here you are claiming the Jewish people are a superior race because God said so. Fine, albeit word, if that is what you believe. However I don't waste any time on anyone who believes a certain race, ethnicity or group of people is superior in all ways to other groups of people. This is a supremacist view for which I have no understanding or sympathy. Either way, if you are worried about anti-semitism, you are not doing Jewish people any favours with your supremacist posts.

OP posts:
ThirtyNineWeeks · 12/04/2016 13:49

I don't believe anyone is 'superior in all ways'.

ThirtyNineWeeks · 12/04/2016 13:50

Are you saying no-one is superior to anyone in terms of IQ? Hmm

ThirtyNineWeeks · 12/04/2016 13:53

OP, Kesstrel has posted more than once her belief that the hatred from the left is perhaps because of the IQ-borne success of the Jews. Are you going to accuse her of being supremacist, too? Or, because she left God out of her comments, you are happy to engage with her?

kesstrel · 12/04/2016 13:54

Thirtynine There is a huge difference between:

  1. describing a genetically homogeneous group's higher average intelligence, and suggesting it is due to what amounts to an unplanned genetic accident

and

  1. Ascribing that group's higher average intelligence to a deliberate gift from a God who deliberately chose them to be superior (whilst at the same time evading the obvious problem inherent in this theory re the discrepancy between the average IQs of Ashkenazis and Sepharidim, and why this god would have favoured the Ashkenazis)
ThirtyNineWeeks · 12/04/2016 14:05

Ah, so a belief that a genetic superiority of IQ ascribed by evolution is not supremacist, but a belief in it being God-given is.

Disingenuous or what?

ThirtyNineWeeks · 12/04/2016 14:08

This article suggests your Wiki link, Kesstrel may be erroneous in its conclusions.

ThirtyNineWeeks · 12/04/2016 14:26

^'Cochrane & Harpending's [whose scientific paper informs Kesstrel's wiki link] reasoning is straightforward enough: If the gene mutations responsible for diseases in Ashkenazim didn’t confer some evolutionary selective advantage, they wouldn’t persist. Cochran and Harpending liken these defective genes to the genes in Africans that often deform hemoglobin. Carrying one copy of the gene, most research suggests, helps ward off malaria—surely an adaptive advantage. Two copies, however, cause sickle-cell anemia.

Cochran and Harpending reasoned the same must be true of the genes that cause illness among Ashkenazi Jews, particularly the four that cause mutations in the enzymes responsible for breaking down fats: Tay-Sachs, Niemann-Pick, Gaucher disease, and mucolipidosis type IV. Two copies cause devastating illness, but one, they speculate, mutely aids the carrier.

How? By enhancing intelligence. Without this extra edge, they hypothesize, the Ashkenazim would never have survived. The Jews “experienced unusual selective pressures that were likely to have favored increased intelligence,” they say. “Their jobs were cognitively demanding, since they were essentially restricted to entrepreneurial and managerial roles as financiers, estate managers, tax farmers, and merchants. These are jobs that people with an IQ below 100 essentially cannot do.”

“I have a stack of books, like four feet high, on all metabolic diseases,” Cochran tells me. “And the four sphingolipid diseases affecting Ashkenazi Jews”—the ones he and Harpending believe enhance intelligence—“are all in the same chapter. That’s like one in 100,000 odds. People could say it’s chance, I suppose—in the same way it’s chance that 27 percent of all of those guys go to Stockholm every year.”

There’s scant physical evidence for this assumption. But what the authors found was intriguing. Among the papers they unearthed were studies by Steven Walkley, a neuroscientist at Albert Einstein College of Medicine, that showed growth of additional dendrites in the tissues of humans and cats with Tay-Sachs and Niemann-Pick. They also cite a 1995 study in the Journal of Biological Chemistry that shows increased neural growth in the brains of rats with Gaucher disease. The authors decided to contact Ari Zimran, the head of the Gaucher Clinic at the Shaare Zedek Medical Center in Jerusalem. It turns out that 81 of his 255 working-age patients have jobs that require, by the author’s estimates, an IQ of at least 120. Twenty-three are engineers, and fourteen are scientists—a number that, if it were consistent with the Israeli workforce, should be just six.'^

Mistigri · 12/04/2016 14:36

if the success of the Jews is not largely down to their superior IQ then why do you think they are so feared?

I really shouldn't ... But your posts are a pretty good argument for it not being down to IQ.

kesstrel it could be down to IQ, but really there's no good evidence for that. It would be interesting to know how studies dealt with the incidence of serious genetic diseases in the Ashkenazi population, some of which cause severe intellectual disability.

BertrandRussell · 12/04/2016 14:40

This, from a bit further on in the article 39weeks links to "It’s staggering what an emphasis on scholarship, both secular and religious, combined with a history of relentless displacement will do. One could argue it’s a near-certain recipe for achievement."

ThirtyNineWeeks · 12/04/2016 14:51

Mistigri, are you suggesting I am Jewish and also thick? How nice.

Mistigri · 12/04/2016 15:00

"It’s staggering what an emphasis on scholarship, both secular and religious, combined with a history of relentless displacement will do. One could argue it’s a near-certain recipe for achievement."

It's common for certain migrant populations to outperform existing populations, in terms of educational achievement especially - there are good examples of this among Asians living in the UK and the USA who consistently outperform white children from similar socioeconomic backgrounds. It would be a shame to ascribe this to something purely biological rather than crediting their cultures with inculcating the drive necessary to succeed :)

kesstrel · 12/04/2016 15:00

And Thirty-Nineweeks you have still not come up with a theological explanation for why sephardic Jews should, as a group, have average IQ , while Ashkenazis are 10 points higher on average.....

And evolutionary accidents are just that, in that they could theoretically happen to any small homogeneous population group, and they could theoretically go in either direction, because evolution has no ultimate "goal". That is quite different to a supremacist view that a particular group has been selected by a cosmic dictator for special superior status.

ThirtyNineWeeks · 12/04/2016 15:01

Bert, I agree there's a pleasing-to-read sardonicism in this article Smile

ThirtyNineWeeks · 12/04/2016 15:05

It is not supremacist to believe the Old Testament's assertion that Jews are God's chosen people. It is not supremacist to point out that some people are intellectually superior to others; what on Earth do you think is the purpose of IQ tests??

ThirtyNineWeeks · 12/04/2016 15:08

..and I repeat: I do not believe any group or individual is superior to another in every way

BertrandRussell · 12/04/2016 15:12

I think you have completely misunderstood the article.

There is nothing supremacist in saying that some people are intellectually superior to others. There is plenty supremacist in saying some races or ethnicities are.

ThirtyNineWeeks · 12/04/2016 15:19

Then I stand shoulder to shoulder with Kesstrel Smile

...and I have complete comprehension of the article, thank you Hmm

LeLaluifleur · 12/04/2016 18:22

"Then I stand shoulder to shoulder with Kesstrel"

Grin I think not.

The notion that specific ethnic groups have particular strengths and weaknesses makes me feel instinctively uncomfortable as views like this lend themselves to being abused for supremacist or racist and anti-Semitic end. Saying that, there is scientific evidence that ethnic groups vary in terms of their health, how they respond to medical treatment, foods, climate etc. I really don't know much about this but remember hearing about this in lectures long time ago.

39weeks I am not an atheist and try and be accepting of other religions and cultural practices as long as they don't hurt other people or break any laws. I listen to scientific arguments but cannot and will not take any posts claiming God has made one group of people superior over all others seriously.

OP posts:
Mistigri · 12/04/2016 18:28

It's just bog standard master race/ supremacist rhetoric and there is a simple everyday word for that: racism.

larrygrylls · 12/04/2016 18:58

Bertrand,

What do you mean by 'anti Zionist'? Zionism is not a precisely defined term.

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