UK woman convicted of abortion

[Veterinari]

Full story here www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/woman-given-suspended-sentence-for-having-abortion-in-the-uk-a6968676.html

Very sad. Is there a will in NI to update legislation on this issue? As it stands everyone loses

"Even her partner couldn't tell she was pregnant, and she apparently had a history of psychological and emotional issues. "

I think I missed that bit.

Yes it's hard to get your head around someone not knowing at that stage that they are pregnant & to have not been to GP.

That said, a friend of mine's mum didn't realise that she was pregnant until she gave birth-and it was her third!

The truth is this woman was pregnant. She didn't want to be. And she had no way to raise the money in time to travel. So she was stuck with the only option she felt was open to her.

Her flatmates did not need to support her decision or agree with it. But they did not need to report her to the police. They also didn't need to go to the media and drag her through the coals.

I have been in her situation, 11 weeks pregnant and from NI with absolutely zilch in funds to travel. It is awful and desperate and bloody lonely.

They weren't exactly given an option to look the other way

They went rooting through the bin. They didn't need to do that.

not as if they blocked her from attending a family planning clinic down the road!

The poor girl did so, it's where she discovered she wouldn't be able to afford to travel to the UK for a perfectly legal and understandable abortion. It's also where she got the telephone number for the support services in the UK that told her what drugs she needed to purchase.

The flatmates are simply trying to cover their arses making up more and more ridiculous stories (that contradict both their original stories and the official statements) because they are being vilified on social media. Boo hoo, poor them.

'DIY abortion' is criminalised throughout the UK, regardless of gestation.

An abortion at 32 weeks pregnant isn't 'legal and accessible' in the UK, except in very specific circumstances (eg ground E of the Abortion Act)

Abortion has no place in the criminal justice system in any context, at any stage of pregnancy.

Criminalising abortions is effectively criminalising the young, women who have been raped, women in domestic abuse situations, women living in unstable housing/poverty.

The woman was 10-12 weeks pregnant, just to clarify, as 32 weeks pregnant seems to have made its way into the conversation.
Diddl clearly your position is anti choice and that is your entitlement. The unfairness of this particular case is that in any other postcode within the UK, this woman could have had a safe, legal and free (at the point of care) termination. Because of where she lives, she is subject to a 150 year old law.
I am pro choice (or you may probably call me anti life, although I am hoping we can all keep the conversation civil, we are doing ok so far!). Please let me be clear - I don't LIKE or embrace the concept or idea of abortion.
I am a pragmatist however. I realise they will happen whether I want them to or not.
SO, in that scenario, and given that I am from a country where 4000 women a year are having them in the UK but lining Ryanair's pockets to do so and coming through Arrival halls bleeding and silent, THEN I think the Government in both NI and Ireland need to realise this is a health issue and a decision between a woman and her doctor, not a woman and a judge or a barrister.

I am definitely not anti choice!

I think it's absolutely disgusting that this young woman could not access an abortion without thinking of travelling to England.

I can see that desperation drove her to do what she did.

If her flatmates are anti abortion I can see why they did what they did.

I've been 19 and pregnant; a student at the time, living in shared housing with students of various ages.

This story has made me cry and feel physically sick for this poor young woman. She's my age, so we must have been pregnant at a similar time. I remember the absolute horror; she sheer terror, the feelings of helplessness and total panic of finding out I was pregnant when I absolutely did not want to be. It was the worst possible timing; a shared house was no place to be considering bringing up a child; how would I explain it to my flatmates and landlord?

I'm lucky that I live in Wales, and had so many choices available to me. It makes me feel absolutely sick that this young woman did not, and now has a conviction on her record to reflect that - and the only thing separating our circumstances when it all boils down to it, is what area of the UK we live in.

I hope those flatmates are haunted by what they've done until their dying day. There is no justification - no matter how badly that flatmate wanted a baby, or how strongly they feel about abortion - for what they did. They deserve every bit of criticism they're getting and more.

"Criminalising abortions is effectively criminalising the young, women who have been raped, women in domestic abuse situations, women living in unstable housing/poverty."

I agree and would go further to say it's just criminalising woman, regardless of those situations or not. Women should have the access they need to a termination if they want one without having to justify themselves as being more or less deserving than others in order to be allowed one.

I listened to a Women's Hour bit this week on the campaign to change the law in NI in cases of fatal foetal abnormalities. Very moving interviews with women who had gone through this experience but it did shock me that one said 'I would never judge any woman for having an abortion now but before this I thought it would be because they wanted a boy instead of a girl or to go on holiday' and I thought, really? Had you really never thought that there might be a range of reasons to want an abortion and that many of them would be tragic? Who have you talked to, or not talked to?

My apologies for assuming you were pro life/anti choice, based on your posts.
No ifs about it, her flatmates were and are anti abortion - that fact nonetheless doesn't allow me the insight to see why they did what they did, sadly.
I think it's disgusting she had to even think of travelling to England and couldn't access this service in her home country.

Her flatmates did not need to support her decision or agree with it. But they did not need to report her to the police. They also didn't need to go to the media and drag her through the coals.

This is where you don't have the right to say what another person's conscience may force them to do. They may very well have needed to report what is currently a crime or pay the price in a lifetime of psychological issues themselves. They may very well, having been dragged into the situation by their flatmates vocal declarations about what she was going through, have felt morally obliged to go and check that there wasn't a fully formed human being in the dustbin before they put it out for collection the next day. They may have needed to do something within this situation in which in could be argued that they were all victims.

I think it is particularly sad and obnoxious when members of either side of this debate start making assumptions about the private moral decisions that must be going on. These flatmates were not necessarily vindictive. They were most certainly traumatised. They were certainly placed in an impossible situation, if they had a problem with abortion to start with (and many in that conservative culture do), not to mention a do-it-yourself, chuck the baby in the bin at the end of it. You have no idea what they did or did not need to do.

And where did the idea that they'd gone to the media come from???

And where did the idea that they'd gone to the media come from?

From their interview records by two different newspapers and from the females live radio interview. Whereas the poor girl has sensibly kept her own council

I don't actually care about their agony. I care about hers. They are irrelevant in the whole process.

And I have some inkling as to how that poor woman felt. When I was scrabbling around to pay for my travel I was thinking if I could od on my antidepressants or throw myself down the stairs just enough to hurt myself enough to abort, but not so much so I do so much damage to myself not to be able to look after my already here children.

I care about her because that's how I felt with a supportive partner and stable homelife, though less solvent than most.
Forgive me if my sympathy runs dry for them

I don't actually care about their agony. I care about hers. They are irrelevant in the whole process.

Lovely. If only it had occurred to be them to be irrelevant when they were considering whether to put the bins out.

I don't think there's any difference between a 10 week foetus and a 30 week foetus.

Really, go look in a biology book.

I think it is particularly sad and obnoxious when members of either side of this debate start making assumptions about the private moral decisions that must be going on.

And yet, here you are doing just that.

You have no idea what they did or did not need to do.

Except for their own words of course.

And where did the idea that they'd gone to the media come from???

Possibly from the newspaper interview they did where their moral indignation stretched as far as reporting her to the police because she wasn't as remorseful as they thought she should be.

I get that you're a bit of a forced birther, but you're choosing the wrong hill to die on here. These were not 2 women fighting for the rights of the unborn, they were 2 women who decided that a woman they hardly knew needed to learn her lesson because she failed to be remorseful.

Their private moral decisions have led to their housemate having a criminal conviction.
Most peoples trauma is between themselves and their therapist. Why did they go to the police? I cannot and will not ever understand their actions.
I also have yet to see any assumptions made about any party in this case - all discussion so far has been on the facts. Or have I missed something?

If only it had occurred to be them to be irrelevant when they were considering whether to put the bins out.

Then perhaps they shouldn't have rooted through the bin and saved the evidence, I mean, if it was so traumatising to them that they had to wait a week before they punished their flatmate and all.

Lovely. If only it had occurred to be them to be irrelevant when they were considering whether to put the bins out.

Yeah, because getting a criminal conviction on the record of a young woman is a totally reasonable reaction to someone in your house having an abortion.

So if she'd miscarried and put the foetus in the bin, would they have been right to call the police? Because apparently the fact that she put it in the bin is the only justification you can find for them reporting her?

Slightly off topic, but why wasn't the 1967 Act extended to NI originally? I know one of the arguments for not changing it now is because of devolution and not being seen to interfere but back then? Religion?

The lack of choice in NI is a disgrace and the woman should not have been prosecuted.

Oh dear. These flatmates were not necessarily vindictive. Actually, listening to the radio interview they most definately were. Well the 38 year old woman was, for sure.

Her interview in the Belfast Telegraph contradicts her interview on radio Ulster, which contradicts the police evidence.

The remains were in a black bag that the PSNI had to 'go looking for' in the bin. If the woman did indeed see the remains (which is doubtful) then she must have been that traumatised that she managed to root through the bin, find the bag, open the bag, be all shock horror, then reseal the bag and replace the rubbish before calling the police.

All the bollocks about scissors, perfectly formed babies on towels, 18 year olds asking for help and so on was not told at the excuse for a trial (where it may have been taken into account), was not entered into evidence and so is just that, Bollocks.

Gone
And quite frankly jacob, that was more to do with your mental health than about a peculiar situation that two completely innocent bystanders were placed in.
That is not an appropriate comment, please consider removing it. The poster in question shared a deeply emotive reaction she had to an unwanted pregnancy, please don't degrade this conversation to personal attacks.

Re the peculiar situation - it's estimated here in Ireland there are at least 1000 of these terminations per annum (impossible to count accurately, and that's not counting the Ryanair ones). That's not peculiar, as in it's not highly unusual, bizarre or unexpected in a country where legal abortion is illegal.

*You have no idea what they did or did not need to do.

Except for their own words of course.*

Indeed. And they have tried to say that they needed to do what they did. But that's inconvenient for you to accept, because it involves really accepting that there are women out there who cannot reconcile abortion with their conscience and therefore cannot allow themselves to collude with it, especially under these circumstances.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by forced birther. To me the situation is more about fairness to the women. I would actually agree that the pregnant woman was also not in a fair situation, but no one is calling her a scumbag (though horrendously insensitive and demanding she most certainly was). Those women were not scumbags. They were just human beings in a nightmarish situation, acting on the product of their own experiences and consciences, as they have a right to do. The woman's apparent complete unconcern for what was to them a very moral dilemma would, on an emotional level, have made it harder for them to stifle their consciences with the notion that she was a desperate person acting desperately. They do seem to feel that she should have had access to an abortion, but ultimately they have decided on a course of action that will make it less likely that DIY abortions can happen; given that they are still wondering if the foetus was alive when it was born, and if it suffered, I can understand why going to the police felt like the most humane course of action. The way that the woman was acting made it very difficult for them to see her as the victim, compared to the baby. With the trauma fresh in their minds, there would have been the need to do something, if only so as not to be implicated (and they could have been, if questions had been asked).

And how lovely of you to be so understanding. I can see precisely where your sympathies are.

Lucky no one had to put the products of my abortion in a bin eh? Well apart from the wonderful, wonderful staff at BPAS in Liverpool. Thank fuck for that. Thank fuck I got help to travel and thank fuck I didn't turn to complete arseholes who would have dobbed me in to the police.