UK woman convicted of abortion

[Veterinari]

Full story here www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/woman-given-suspended-sentence-for-having-abortion-in-the-uk-a6968676.html

Very sad. Is there a will in NI to update legislation on this issue? As it stands everyone loses

[Dontlaugh]

Something similar happened in RoI - Pills
but no convictions or arrests as far as I know.
This woman in the North was a VERY soft target, no? Is that the difference between the cases posted above? Publicity and pressure?
Is it public knowledge WHO exactly decided to proceed with a prosecution? If not, it should be.
Discretion should have played a part in this surely, as in balancing the greater good against procuring a conviction against a desperate teenager with very little support she could access, as opposed to for example deciding to prosecute a drink driver for mowing down a pedestrian (only an example).

[Greengardenpixie]

She was 10 wks? It says it was the remains of a male foetus in the bin. Oh dear god. Its awful all round.

[TeacupDrama]

Just for accuracy a 10 week old foetus would look like a baby it would have fingers and toes and developing finger nails and hair follicles, if you go to the pregnancy calendar at base of page it says exactly what development happens when.

However whether foetus had fingers or not does not alter the case at all she was a poor woman in very sad situation

[LucyBabs]

I think after a post mortem it was discovered the feotus was male. I had a late miscarriage at 19 weeks pregnant. It took a postmortem to find out he was a boy.

[gonetoseeamanaboutadog]

I have friends who have gone through difficult miscarriages at this stage. Perhaps, if you were to study very closely, it would be apparent that this is not a fully formed human being. But to my friends, who were not expecting this to be the case, their emotion was surprise at having given birth to what they described as 'a tiny baby'. There is no reason why this could not also have been the case for the women being talked about on this thread. And there is no reason that they should not have been moved and deeply anxious about being part of something so unpleasant as consigning that form to the back of a dustbin lorry.

I have no desire to punish anyone for having sex. I just don't think that your perceived right to eradicate the aftermath should have anything to do with me at all. I'm under no obligation to push out a wheelie bin that I know contains a dead foetus, especially if the culture I come from teaches that it is a baby and it was wrong to take that life. By all means, go ahead and do what you want with your body, but my heart and my conscience is entirely my own. I would like nothing more than to offer support to the person caught up in those circumstances; I feel genuinely sorry for what she has gone through and this is a great example of why illegal abortion is a dreadful idea for everyone. It troubles me that she was without medical care during that procedure and I feel strongly about the state of affairs in Northern Ireland. But if I thought DIY abortions were wrong and I was colluding with them by keeping silent - if I thought what had happened in that house was wrong and there was something it was right to do - I would still tell the police. I might wring my hands about it for a week, but I'd do it in the end. I'd probably be running out of ideas as to what to do with the foetus, if nothing else. What do you do with a foetus on your hands if you think that life is sacred? Horrible dilemma.

I grew up with 'nice kind Christian parents' who understood the sermon on the mount also. Thing is, if you look closely at the sermon on the mount, it's utterly ruthless when it comes to right and wrong. It considers wrongdoing as sin and while there is infinite grace for everyone, there's also no looking the other way. And for many reasons, this is an issue that Northern Ireland needs to look at.

[gonetoseeamanaboutadog]

It would be very interesting to know what motivated the prosecutors. It's common knowledge that this happens. Did they think it was reaching unacceptable levels? Was there a pro-choicer or a pro-lifer motivated by the desire to shine a light on this terribly odd situation where, as someone sad upthread, only Ryanair benefits? Be interesting to know.

[Oswin]

Gonetosee the flatmates went searching for the foetus. They didn't have to. Once they did they could also have told the flatmate to dispose of it properly. They didn't.
Cuz they are nasty sneaky fuckers.

[AugustaFinkNottle]

Gone, would that squeaky clean conscience then lead you to lie repeatedly and publicly to make things look really bad for the woman in question?

[Dontlaugh]

Gone, you have raised some very valid points.
Re: what SHOULD have happened to the foetus? A valid question and one I am sure over 1000 women in the Republic of Ireland also face every year - I don't know. Based on my own experience of pregnancy loss, in a huge rush of blood which I hadn't expected, my much wanted pregnancy was lost down a toilet, as a miscarriage. If it had happened in a clinical setting it would have been disposed of as clinical waste.
As to what should happen in a domestic setting, I don't honestly know. But the point is she shouldn't have BEEN in a domestic setting. The woman should have been able to access adequate care, full stop. We shouldn't be debating how to dispose of foetuses in a domestic setting because it shouldn't be happening in the first place.

I appreciate your respect for your upbringing and your ethos. I do not for a second believe the Sermon on the Mount has anything, ANYTHING, at all to do with my reproductive choices and nor should it. I accept your argument that there is right and wrong - I reject utterly your implication that this case falls into the "wrong" category, unless you are classing the housemates as the "wrong" ones here. They judged based on morals, they live in a country that unfortunately does not support pregnancy choices and they, and ONLY THEY, made that woman pay the price of her choices, because they thought she wasn't sorry enough and didn't show enough remorse.
Sadly, they had the legalistic bombass to back them up.

I agree you have a point in relation to what motivated this prosecution. Personal convictions can motivate the best and most well intended of us in unintended ways. That is not always a good thing. A 150 year old law? Please.

[Canyouforgiveher]

well I suppose you are saving all your sympathy and human understanding for the flatmates Gone and have none left for the woman who is left with a criminal conviction, a traumatic trial, and public condemnation in her community. Your choice.

And the gospels are indeed ruthless in describing right and wrong and therefore I wouldn't want to rely on an interpretation of the gospels when defending my actions, if I were those flatmates. I think they were downright unchristian.

[SuburbanRhonda]

It is clear that the flat mate wanted the young woman to have the baby and she would adopt it. And when that wasn't happening she reported her to the police.

To me, this is the most chilling aspect of this case. It blows clean out of the water the housemate's claim that she was motivated to phone the police because of her conscience. I don't know how she can live with the lies she's told.

[Drinksforeveryone]

This is just dreadful. The poor woman..

I know it is true, but still find it hard to comprehend how different life is for those so nearby.

A termination is a difficult thing to go through no matter how simple procuring it is - but this just beggars belief.

I shared the petition - hopefully in months/years to come things will change.

[Hygge]

It is clear that the flat mate wanted the young woman to have the baby and she would adopt it. And when that wasn't happening she reported her to the police.

"To me, this is the most chilling aspect of this case. It blows clean out of the water the housemate's claim that she was motivated to phone the police because of her conscience. I don't know how she can live with the lies she's told."

I agree Suburban, if the flatmate really did want to use this girl and her pregnancy as a way to get hold of a child for herself, that to me is wrong. Nobody should be forced to continue a pregnancy to provide someone else with a child.

It shows a spectacular lack of awareness about the effects pregnancy and birth can have on a woman, emotionally and physically, and an enormous amount of spite on the part of the woman who has basically used the legal system to lash out at a person who wouldn't be bullied by her and her narrow views and selfish wants.

She can live with her lies because she doesn't have a conscience, it's not what motivated her before and it won't trouble her one jot now.

Chick she didn't murder anybody, and your post is frankly disgusting when you consider the people here posting their own experiences.

[Oswin]

Oh chick don't be a dickhead.

And yy to the flat mate wanting the baby. That makes me feel sick. She just wanted this poor woman to be an incubator for her. Then once she knew she wouldn't was out for revenge.

[gonetoseeamanaboutadog]

She may have seen this as a way to get the baby she wanted, but I doubt it. I strongly suspect she would far rather try again to have a child of her own. It's much more likely to me that she simply didn't want this particular baby to die, and was willing, and yes even happy, to offer a home. But that doesn't mean the driving force was self-interest. If that was the case I think she would have wanted to isolate the girl from the family who would have been likely to step in and help out if there ended up being a baby. Instead, she tried to find out who they were and strongly urged the woman to get in touch with them. Apart from anything, this woman was going to go through a medical procedure without medical care; that may have been reason enough to urge against it. I know it would have been for me.

How is it so difficult to comprehend that the desire to save a life can be a driving force?

[JacobFryesTopHatLackey]

Its difficult to comprehend because of the interviews they have given to the media. The ones that show their stories to be full of holes and come out sounding like a mouthpiece for Bernie Smyth.

If they had maintained their integrity and not gone running to give interviews, I could have believed they were doing it from a truly moral place. I may not have agreed with their decision but I would have respected their beliefs. But in light of all they've said and done, I think they are abhorrent and despicable.

[SuburbanRhonda]

I strongly suspect she would far rather try again to have a child of her own.

You can suspect all you like to back up your version of what happened, gone.

Doesn't make it the truth.

[SkodaLabia]

The desire to save a life can be a driving force, but in this instance they were clearly trying to punish her. The interview is full of remarks along the lines of "she wasn't remorseful enough".

[SuburbanRhonda]

I'd be interested to know how much the flatmate is doing to save the countless children's lives lost in the developing world.

Oh, but then she wouldn't get to keep the baby herself, would she?

[OneFlewOverTheDodosNest]

Sadly this case doesn't surprise me at all - I've had an abortion and I was friends with a lot of Irish people at the time. I confided in one particularly close female friend about the situation and she decided to recruit the rest of them to try to stop me going through with it.

When I still had the procedure they were foul - if I hadn't been subject to their vitriol I never would have believed it possible from them, or anyone else. I can fully believe that girl's housemates would have wanted her arrested for what she did - I think my former friends would have done the same to me if it had been possible. Thank God I was living in mainland Europe and not NI at the time...