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UK woman convicted of abortion

594 replies

Veterinari · 05/04/2016 11:07

Full story here www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/woman-given-suspended-sentence-for-having-abortion-in-the-uk-a6968676.html

Very sad. Is there a will in NI to update legislation on this issue? As it stands everyone loses

OP posts:
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urbanfox1337 · 16/04/2016 22:31

There you go again gone argumentum ad hominem.

How is it a cop out? I gave rational reasons for every point I made, reasons that the majority of people in civilised western countries agree with! What are yours, you still haven't given anything other than because god says so? What point of yours didn't I engage with?

I am not suggesting we imprison women, I am asking you what the alternative is, and you haven't given one yet?

I didn't say it was stupid to consider the welfare of an unborn child, I said it's stupid to say you know what they want. I still have no clue as to what your alternative is other than to imprison women and force them to give birth!

It's easy to give one example that you know of where a foetus wasn't aborted and then extrapolate that example to say therefore no foetus should ever be aborted but that is plainly nonsense. Not everyones family situation is the same, what exactly is your alternative? You're just wailing in the wind while the rest of us deal with real life. Your comments makes obvious why religion should have no part in determining how a society should be organised.

And one last point, I NEVER said a doctor should decide what foetuses should be aborted based on quality of life. I said it's a very hard choice and I can't think of anyone better than the doctor and the parent. ie the doctor advices the facts and the parent makes the informed choice. If not that then who a politician? What is your answer, we let some supernatural deity decide?

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AugustaFinkNottle · 16/04/2016 23:00

Gone, you keep referring to Downs children whilst refusing to deal with the issue of children with anencephaly. Where is your dividing line in terms of disabilities which you would consider do or do not justify abortion?

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gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 16/04/2016 23:37

urban You may be able to dazzle others with Latin, but would be more dazzled if you were able to remain on point. Questions that were ignored.

If women have the right to abort their babies on the basis that they can do as they please with their own body, why is this not carried to its logical conclusion. I.e., in a woman can abort her baby, any baby, right up to the moment of birth?...[Or] are you saying that there should be conditions upon the choices a pregnant woman should make?

^You cannot say this is up to the doctors and parents to decide because that would be the same as Christians leaving it up to God to decide. If you have reason and objectivity on your side, there will be a rational defence for this. Give it. That's living in the real world - a world that 'imperfect' people don't have the same rights to live in, apparently.

I would like to hear a reasoned justification for why bodily autonomy suddenly becomes absolute (i.e. there are no restrictions on when abortion can take place) if the child has a defect that carries a stigma but doesn't affect quality of life (that is, euthanasia on merciful grounds cannot be said to apply).

Fifty years from now, I would like to think we'll be looking back at some of these 'exceptions' with the same distaste with which we regard racial prejudice and homophobia. You ask who would be best placed to make decisions such as these, if not parents and doctors. If that's your line of reasoning, I'm not sure why you're posting at all. Surely you should be leaving it to the doctors and parents of children who have been in this position? I happen to believe that engaging with these issues is part of getting on with real life - in fact, it's engaging with life in a more real way than someone who leaves the thinking and the morality to someone else - anyone else, in fact, who can come up with an answer that suits the majority.

Augusta I would be delighted to engage with some questions when you've provided some answers. It seems you are a great deal better at asking questions than answering. Or don't you have any defence either?

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urbanfox1337 · 17/04/2016 00:26

gone - not trying to dazzle anyone with latin, that's what the argument is called. "argumentum ad hominem", ie instead of addressing the points you are attacking me! Apologies to everyone else if I repeat myself.

Women DO NOT have the right to abort foetuses after 24 weeks for no reason. I don't get why you keep asserting they do!

Saying abortion, which is up to the parents and doctors, is the same as leaving it up to god is just ludicrous, are you insane. The former is up to scientific experts informing the people who are most affected by the decision ie the parents. The later is leaving it up to demonic voices in someone's head or a collection of fictional books that was written 2000 years ago by goat herders. WTF?

I agree with this countries legal position and will also defend it morally, as I have done. How is that not rational, how have I not defended it?

Noone is arguing bodily autonomy is absolute, no one is saying there isn't / shouldn't be restrictions on when abortions can take place. Name one country in the world that has legislated that bodily autonomy is absolute? It just isn't as black and white as you are trying to portrait.

Now why don't you give an explanation about what you would do different from the current situation?

Are you happy to leave this to people who have been in this situation, well then leave it to me because I have been in this situation, my family has been in this situation, my neighbours have been in this situation and ....... everyone I know has experience of this situation. So leave your irrational superstitions out of this and let people who make these decisions in the real world get on with it.

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Canyouforgiveher · 17/04/2016 04:28

I think there should be abortion on demand for whatever reason up to the age of viability of the fetus.

The argument about why shouldn't a 39 week old fetus be aborted is just a straw argument - if that is the right term (that book Straight And Crooked Thinking would give the right name for this). Firstly it is illegal. Secondly most women would not abort in these circumstances, even if it were allowed. Why would anyone think there were enough women who would to justify a public policy position on this?

In the extremely rare case where a decision about termination is necessary after 24 weeks, that decision should be a medical decision between a woman and her doctor. If her health requires her to terminate I trust medical professionals and the mother to make the right decision.

In all of this I am motivated by the belief that women can be trusted to make the best decisions for themselves and their offspring.

gone I think you accept there is a continuum of what is acceptable or not in termination of pregnancy, so why is it such a radical immoral notion to just trust individual women to make the best decisions for themselves and their families.

I think abortion laws are often written as if women were these murderous harpies who wanted to abort their babies for pure convenience. In reality I think nothing is further from the truth. Women make incredibly brave decisions every day. terminating a pregnancy because it is the wrong time/place, having a baby because they cannot imagine not, having a baby with disabilities because they think they can cope, terminating a baby with disabilities because they love their existing children.

I trust women.

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veryproudvolleyballmum · 17/04/2016 07:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AugustaFinkNottle · 17/04/2016 08:02

Augusta I would be delighted to engage with some questions when you've provided some answers

Do tell me what questions you have asked me.

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AugustaFinkNottle · 17/04/2016 08:03

And by that, gone,I mean questions based on what I have posted, in the same way as my question was based on your post.

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gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 17/04/2016 09:46

Augusta read my last post and answer the questions therein, if you would like to see some answers.

urban i was certainly not attacking you- if you want to see attach just read some of your own posts. I understand slightly better where you are coming from, but only slightly. What you need to understand is that I've been fielding questions about what I would do in the case of rape, as if the one or two scenarios in which I wouldn't feel abortion was wrong meant that my whole approach was nonsensical. Actually, what this response reveals is that both of our approaches are at different points on the same continuum, and our reasons for drawing the lines where we do have nothing much to do with women's rights (which we're both happy to override after 24 weeks) but with how we perceive the foetus. Put simply, I think it's a bigger deal than you do. That doesn't mean you don't care about it necessarily, and doesn't mean I don't care about women. Neither approach is crazy out disgusting. We've simply weighed everything up and come to different conclusions; you think it's acceptable to force a woman to carry a pregnancy if the foetus is developed to a certain point and I think she would be wrong to abort even before that point.

Neither of us believes women should have absolute bodily autonomy, or that the idea that every life is sacred should trump the woman's wish to abort in every situation. And this doesn't mean our arguments don't make sense. It means that this is a complex and difficult issue in which no easy answers about women having rights or life being sacred go far enough to help us in those tragic situations that fall into a 'grey area'.

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urbanfox1337 · 17/04/2016 18:11

gone You say that you think abortion is morally wrong but that women should have a right to have one if they so choose. Does that mean in the real world you support the current legal position in England, and if not what would you change it to?

In terms of rape, I think it is both morally and legally right to allow termination up to the point of birth.

As for overriding our bodily autonomy after 24 weeks of a pregnancy, I disagree. We are in effect choosing to give up some (not all) autonomy at that point. After that point the state withdraws the option to provide an abortion. The woman still has no legal obligation to look after the foetus and can go on to indulge in activities that are not conducive to a successful pregnancy therefore causing a termination. That is not a nice thing to do but we have the freewill to do so and the state doesn't stop it. I don't imagine that there are many people who do that although I did read of a trend to smoke more so as to have as small a baby as possible.

Lastly again its probably a very few cases but after 24 weeks a woman can claim to be at danger of mental harm should the pregnancy continue. It is arguable that wanting to have a late abortion is in fact evidence of mental harm, so that last resort option is also rightly available.

All this adds up to the not very hard and fast rule of 24 weeks, certainly changing it could only have negative effects.

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gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 17/04/2016 20:02

The woman still has no legal obligation to look after the foetus and can go on to indulge in activities that are not conducive to a successful pregnancy therefore causing a termination.

And your point is? But it's not so easy to accidentally cause a miscarriage without putting your own life in serious jeopardy. Anyway, we weren't talking about what one could do, but what it was morally acceptable to do. So it's not relevant that one could try to 'accidentally' miscarry (and this would of course be illegal), but only that you - and the law - think it's not morally acceptable to routinely procure an abortion post-24 weeks. I'm interested in knowing what moral aspect of the bodily autonomy principle changes at this point, and I'm not much further on. Surely a pro-lifer could argue that a woman is giving up her right to bodily autonomy, potentially, when she has consensual intercourse? It's exactly the same principle applied at a different point. But the pro-lifer's reason for choosing the time frame perfectly reflects their moral framework (all life is sacred), while the pro-choicer's time frame doesn't seem to reflect anything objective, other than a desire to keep the idea of abortion separate from the idea of terminating a life form that resembles a baby - it certainly doesn't tie in to any aspect of the bodily autonomy argument (not that has been put forward here) and there is no recognition of a child's right to life beginning at this point - at least, it can't matter to anyone on this thread because it hasn't been mentioned.

Are you saying that if late-term abortions were routinely available, absolutely no one would choose one (except in the circumstances of rape and mental harm) because all other women are magically quite happy to go with it, having desperately needed access to abortion pre-24 weeks? It seems terribly convenient and arbitrary. Why is it the case that a woman chooses to give up bodily autonomy post-24 weeks, but if the limit for an abortion were suddenly reduced to 12 weeks, you would probably feel that her right to bodily autonomy was being tampered with?

I think you're skirting the issue.

As for myself, as I've already said, I think we're legislating for the society we have, not the society we'd like to have (which is, I believe, a world without abortion). Legislating for the society we'd like to have wouldn't create a society without abortion, but more suffering and maternal death. So although I believe abortion is wrong, I can see no other option but for the state should provide this service up to 12 weeks while making every effort to support individuals to make different choices in terms of contraception and support for lone parents etc.. I choose 12 weeks because it seems the shortest practical time frame that also gives the people involved the chance to consider - I would make it less if I could.

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AugustaFinkNottle · 17/04/2016 21:50

Gone, my views on those questions are in essence the same as Canyouforgiveher's, so I'll refer you to her post.

Your turn.

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urbanfox1337 · 18/04/2016 00:31

The point was that after 24 weeks a woman hasn't lost all control over her own body (which you implied), she still has free will. I am not aware than it is illegal for a woman to cause an accidental miscarriage as long as its not using controlled substances etc. A foetus does not have the rights of a human being, so you couldn't be charged with murder, or manslaughter.

Anyway back to the morality of it, you are labelling things moral or immoral, but thats not how it works. Morality is relative to the situation and circumstances. For example you might say it was morale for someone in extreme pain to commit suicide but immorale (and should be stopped) if the person was not in their right mind.

what moral aspect of the bodily autonomy principle changes at this point what changes at this point is the greatest good. This is different for every situation but laws have to be fixed so it becomes the greatest good for most people and society, on average. At ten weeks, if a person wants a termination the balance of greatest good is in favour of the mother, after all the embryo is only a few cells. But as the baby develops, the balance of greatest good (which is how we judge morality) starts to increase towards the foetus. The mother has had a chance for termination, the foetus has developed into more than just a few cells, society's emotional reactions become stronger and many other factors deem the balance of greatest good to be more in favour of the baby.

However in many cases the balance of greatest good can swing back in favour of the mother and a termination. For example if a 30 week pregnant mother is so desperate to have a termination that she is willing to risk her own life attempting to have a 'accidental' termination. Then it might be deemed the least worst option (or greatest good) would be a late term abortion and thus a morale act.

You might still think its an immoral act but its society as a whole that determines morality and usually that is enacted in law. Yes we sometimes get it wrong but this has always been self correcting and in general like entropy always travels in one direction.

You might hold some aloof morale positions but morality is also relative to what is practical and what is possible. For example we might say its immoral to let a person die when there is a drug that could save them but society cannot afford to spend unlimited money on every single patient and we do have to include a financial consideration in a moral judgement. So society has decided that there has to be limits on how much money is spent on patients, even if it means they die.

If having consensual sex is giving up bodily autonomy then once you start you no longer have the right to stop and say no? Surely not! If you make that comparison then you are saying even being a passenger in a car is giving up bodily control, with no right to ask the driver to stop and let you out. Remember one of the factors in morality is what is practical and what is possible, to help us weigh up the greater good. So a better example would be to say anti-abortionists who give up a right to free will when they become impregnated is like a person boarding an aeroplane. Once in the air they cannot get off even if they want to, even though its possible to jump out the door, society has deemed it morale to stop them because everyone else would die and that is not the greatest good. However if you did that in a car, it would be deemed immoral because the car could stop you could get out and noone would die.

So back to the pregnancy, it is possible to have an abortion without harming anyone, so if a woman wanted one it would be immoral to stop her and akin to holding her body hostage, as determined by our society seeking the greatest good. You do not give up your bodily rights just because you are impregnated and just because some religious group has picked an arbitrary time to say that, that is the point when life becomes sacred.

Its not even as if you can say every time you have sex you get pregnant and therefore should have known before and just have to give up your body/life for 9 months/18 years/ forever.. That would be like saying every time you get in a car you could have an accident so if you do you have to live with a damaged car for the rest of your life because you should have known. We have an accident we can fix it, if you accidentally get pregnant then you can fix it.

So you're saying all life is sacred is the reason for being pro life, but what about animal life, great apes, cows, burgers, sausages, flowers, herbs, mushrooms, atoms, stardust? It seems hypocritical to just say 'All Life'? Do you mean DNA, just human DNA? Cells, just human cells, skin cells? You also use an arbitrary time frame, fertilisation. Why pick that time, why not any other time?

So it seems you need to clarify what life you mean, how you determine it is life, how you can say fertilisation is when that life come into existence. It seems you are asking for answers you arent prepared to give yourself..

The pro-choicers time frame doesn't seem to reflect anything objective, Umm who decided it had to be something objective? That aside it is both subjective and objective reasons and they have been said many times. Viability of foetus, development of consciousness, experiencing pain, forming memories, effect on mother, people's emotions, medical objective facts as well as people's subjective opinions etc etc etc, it is based on a lot more than an intangible statement like, 'life is sacred'! Pass me the Big Mac!

there is no recognition of a child's right to life - because you have not demonstrated there is a right to life for a foetus, most people don't think there is.

If late-term abortions were routinely available, absolutely no one would choose one Almost noone, 90% of all terminations occur before the first 12 weeks. Only around 1% occurs between 20-24 weeks and only 100ish occur after 24 weeks. Why do you think any mother would wait longer than they had to, except in exceptional circumstances? It's not magic, its an important decision and most make it as soon as they can because of the big affect it has on their lives.

A woman chooses to give up some bodily autonomy post-24 weeks because society has agreed that is a good and morale thing to do, after all the facts and circumstances have been weighed up to work out the greatest good, just like obeying the speed limit. If we lowered the time scale to 12 weeks then we would have to justify why it was better/more morale than 24 weeks. I haven't thought through the arguments but just off top of my head: how many more women would feel pushed into an abortion because they can't leave it long enough to make a decision, what about screening tests 18-21 weeks, are there people who don't realise they are pregnant that early, would more unwanted babies be born, adoption rates, childrens homes, teenage mums, rates of illegal abortions, what would you do to women who aborted after 12 weeks, people travelling overseas for terminations, people who can't afford to travel overseas for abortions. then you weigh that against the benefit, what is that?

You see most people don't agree with the religious opinion that an egg magically become 'a life' the second it is fertilised, most agree its just a few cells, maybe it will turn into life maybe it won't. On balance I can't see society agreeing that a change to 12 weeks would be more morale and increase the greater good. I could see a little change to 22 or 21 weeks if medical science advanced more to make foetuses more viable outside the womb, but even then 24 weeks has stood the test of time as being a good balance between all the factors and viability is only one.

And lastly (whew this is long) how did you pick 12 weeks. Isnt that as arbitrary as the claims you make about 24? Where is your evidence that all women are able to decide within that time? When obviously they aren't. Doesn't 12 weeks seem hypocritical?

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gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 19/04/2016 21:36

Thanks for the indepth answer urban, I don't have time to respond properly but will return when I do.

Augusta I'm really not that desperate. Rude I can handle, lazy I won't.

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AugustaFinkNottle · 19/04/2016 22:45

You mean you can't, gone.

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LucyBabs · 20/04/2016 00:31

urban I read your post with interest and nodded along with all your points. I hope you are a member of a pro choice group? Smile

I don't generally have an issue with anti choice opinions but theres something about the religious anti choice opinion that really sticks in my throat. It's so hypocritical. I was unfortunately brought up Catholic the awful crap I had to listen to as a child would turn your stomach.
Anti women anti homosexual. My mother had to be blessed by the parish priest after she had a baby. She couldn't leave the house before this, the reason she was blessed? "she probably enjoyed the sex she had to produce the baby she just gave birth to"

I generally don't give a shit what others beliefs are but when it judges others and causes others hardship and pain then no its not welcome in modern society

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gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 20/04/2016 00:44

This reply has been deleted

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LucyBabs · 20/04/2016 00:52

But gone the anti women/ gay/choice issue is rampant in religion. It isn't just the parish priest in my small part of the world. The Pope condems women who have had an abortion and also condems those that have sex outside marriage, those that use contraception and those that are gay.
He and those like him don't give a shit about people. What their lives are like, the choices and hardships they face.
I don't judge you the same way but religion is not accepting or tolerant

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AugustaFinkNottle · 20/04/2016 01:22

Gone, the evidence demonstrates that I am neither of those things. You appear unable to answer my reasonable questions, and instead seek to impose patronising conditions before attempting to do so. You of course don't have to answer questions, but the rest of us can feel free to draw the inevitable conclusions from your failure to do so.

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gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 20/04/2016 09:38

Lucy I don't want to try and defend indefensible behaviour, just to make the point that it's not representative of religion right across the board. The present pope is making a sustained effort to at least redress the balance in many areas, though I would understand if you didn't give a damn at this point.

Augusta You will find people don't want to talk to you if you can't be bothered to speak for yourself. Waving your hand and saying 'What she said' doesn't cut it. No one is obliged to answer your questions and will be less inclined to do so if you expect more than you give.

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wickedlazy · 20/04/2016 09:53

Why didn't she go to the Marie Stopes clinic in Belfast city centre for a safe, legal abortion?

She was convited for having a diy abortion "administering a poison with intent to procure a miscarriage" I think.

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wickedlazy · 20/04/2016 10:04

The more I think about it, the more I agree with pp she probably needs mental health support. I think a lot of you are forgetting that abortions are performed regularly in Belfast now.

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AugustaFinkNottle · 20/04/2016 10:35

No one is obliged to answer your questions

Oh, the irony. No, gone, no-one is obliged to answer anyone's questions. The questioner is however entitled to point out the inferences to be drawn from that fact. Live with it.

The lengths you are prepared to go to in order to try to justify failing to answer reasonable questions are pretty extraordinary. First you made ludicrous suggestions that you couldn't understand posts which everyone else could understand. Then you seek to impose conditions before you will deign to answer. Then, when your conditions are met, you resort to somewhat childish abuse and spurious further conditions imposed retrospectively. What next? Are you going to demand a specific word count? Why is that, when a poster agrees with a view that has already been expressed, she has to repeat it before you will ordain that it is valid?

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AugustaFinkNottle · 20/04/2016 10:38

wickedlazy, according to a poster upthread the Marie Stopes clinic is very expensive. On googling, I see that a surgical abortion there starts at £644 and rises depending on the length of the pregnancy.

The fact that this policy discriminates against the most financially vulnerable is one of the most objectionable aspects of it.

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gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 20/04/2016 12:32

I wonder if you talk like that in real life, Augusta... If so, I very much doubt that everyone else understands you. Draw whatever conclusions you like, I'm not interested in your opinions or having a debate with someone so contrived and pretentious.

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