It seems someone in Germany has woken up and smelled the coffee

[ProfessorPreciseaBug]

This from Reuters..

www.spiegel.de/international/europe/following-the-path-of-the-paris-terror-weapons-a-1083461.html#ref=nl-international

Germany is proposing to demand that refugees integrate into German life or loose rights of residency.. It appears to include learning Grman and not treating women as second class...If only some of our politicians would do likewise.

I'm afraid you have missed my point.

The level of English needed to argue for custody of your kids in court compared to chatting in a supermarket- well it obviously bears no relation.

Would you be prepared to sit in court and understand only 50% or less if the court proceedings could change your life forever?

jolie

I am not sure where you are from but the use of the word "retarded" is frowned upon in the UK and on MN.

"British values" (what a bollocks concept) are enshrined in law and are pretty easy to uphold legally. FGM is illegal, forced marriages are illegal. What more do you need? Enshrined in law maybe but there are great issues in enforcing them.

Op back to the Germany waking up point, did anyone see :

" German police braced for a surge in drug nd sex related crimes by migrants and an increase in radicalisation against the state, The leaked police report predicts a rise in crime and warns that Islamists are agitating in asylum centers, increasing the risk of radicalisation among dissafected refugees. It notes "hundreds" of incidents in recent months which salfists - proponents of militant sunnni islam - have sought contact with refugees"

" The report compiled by department for the interior for north rhine claimed violent and sexual crimes are expected to rise along with thefts and drug offences"

" The report pointed to an "enormous additional burden" for police forces rising from the migrant crisis. in north rhine last year police responded to 93,000 complaints of violence in refugee centers" . Also added the right wing agitation would rise across the country. "

GobbolinoCat Extremely worrying indeed. I wonder where all that German efficiency is and why German and the EU have not got any decent programme & project planning in place. My work place would go into meltdown without appropriate project management procedures and that is 'just' for service development. How can those that govern us get away without clear strategies, goals, aims, resource planning and budgets to back it all up? Genuine question? I'd get the sack if I didn't provide this in my day job and I am a tiny wheel, so to speak.

Jolie
"The level of English needed to argue for custody of your kids in court compared to chatting in a supermarket- well it obviously bears no relation."

There is a difference in providing interpreters for court cases which are fairly rare so cost less and medical appointments which are not so rare and cost the NHS 11 mil and projected 23 mil in 2020.

So you don't think someone might need an interpreter when seeing an oncologist? You wouldn't want to be absolutely sure what the doctor was saying to you?

Jolie "Oh yeah, it's because it's retarded."
wow, now that is a bit offensive and very un-PC.

How can those that govern us get away without clear strategies, goals, aims, resource planning and budgets to back it all up? Genuine question

this is the thing I don't think they are getting away with it, UKIP would have been NOTHING without Blairs policy of not putting work breaks on the EE when Germany and other large nations did. Labours rep is tarnished beyond belief, and the far right have got lots of fodder to go at.

The rise of the right is across Germany, and Merkel has fallen badly out of favour there too and was shamed in recent elections.

So the wheels move in a grindingly slow and cumbersome manner and while they do, horrors happen but in the end, there is a price to pay.

TESS re interpreters my friend was one and up north too ( cheaper) her hourly rate ( a few years ago ) was between £30 per hour to £45 per hour.

tess firstly, German efficiency is a myth

Secondly, the NRW police chief was sacked shortly after NYE due to failings in policing around that time. It has been a big problem, beginning last year with some far right riots that completely caught the police by surprise and culminating in NYE.

The main issue hasn't been migrant crime but far right crime and the inability of the police to deal effectively with that. One of the issues has been that Germany is very, very unwilling to breach an individual's right to privacy so things like stop and search etc aren't really known here, or require a much higher bar of suspicion of wrongdoing (it's actually part of what contributed to the Germanwings disaster).

That's my localised view anyway. I admit I don't have a huge handle on what happens nationally because although I speak the language I'm not fluent and find the broadsheets and news programs difficult to follow. I also find that although I can understand what they are saying, "capturing the mood" and understanding cultural references is really very difficult although I've been here over ten years.

Shock horror, I haven't fully integrated!!

So you see why I might be more understanding of the difficulties that migrants might face adapting in the uk than someone whose experience of the "other" doesn't extend beyond a week in Spain

Not a bit offensive DEEPLY offensive, and huge campaigns obv missed by that poster that its not the done thing and its repugnant to say.

this is a good illustration about values etc in our society. do we still have disablist attitudes YES, but in the main we know they are wrong.

Why should a migrant have to speak perfect English when most British teens don't? Why should a migrant have to know about Oliver Cromwell when most Brits don't? Because neither will get a job as an oncologist if they don't... and you do want to visit an oncologist and not a witch doctor, don't you?

The main issue hasn't been migrant crime but far right crime and the inability of the police to deal effectively with that

I see so its your word against an article in the Times, taken from Der Spiegel from a leaked document from the police....

OK. I know which one I am going to take as pretty good source

You are wilfully misunderstanding me Gobbolino.

Which is fine.

fourmummy I'm not sure what you are getting at. Why are we talking about migrants becoming oncologists? Are you confusing two of my posts?

My DH does not need an interpreter 10years down the line. He is not an intellectual by any means and does a basic manual job. We had to go to court quite a few years ago and he understood it all. How is he different?

Granted he does occasionally make some howlers like telling some of his workmates he has constipated when he meant blocked nose but on the whole he manages.

If he can manage to learn in that time maybe others can too. He always said the key to his success in this was that he did not have anyone of his own countrymen around therefore if he wanted interaction, he had to talk to British people which he said helped more than anything.

Maybe people might need help initially and I think Jolie you've kind of missed that point. The supermarket is the first basic step of the path, a building block if you will. But starting at that point and building on it, don't you think, that with practise many might gain enough proficiency to understand a good deal more.

No I have posted an article, you have over ridden it with your personal opinion.
You have not mentioned any of the migrant crime listed you have instead laid all the onus on far right crime.

I am merely stating which source on whats going on, I personally trust more, which is The Times.

I had an interpreter when I fought my ex for custody of my kids.

I actually understood 99% but there was no way I was going to risk not having an interpreter and missing something. Not when the possible consequence was losing my kids.

In the end I found her distracting and asked her to stop, but I'm bloody glad she was there.

Gobolino is pointing out that without good command of both language and education one, despite background or origin, favourable or unfavourable, will be unlikely to succeed. Put more succinctly if I were to decide to become an oncologist in say an Arabic speaking country I would have limited chances of success unless I made the effort to speak Arabic.

I don't see what is wrong with saying 'OK you want to live here, here are our social norms and guidelines'.

I've family who moved here. Their attitude was - we chose to come here, so when in Rome... They switched language so that the kids could learn properly (all went into uni, one doing English lit), went to evening classes to brush up, made a point of visiting museums, reading the classics they hadn't come across, etc. They never expected special treatment and have never had their hands out. They have a dim view of people who don't bother to live the life here and expect to be allowed to do whatever the hell they like and not contribute to society.

OK, not the same as refugees, but there are some similarities. You just can't pretend that where you live is the same as back home.

Gobbolino I was answering tess's specific point about lack of clear goals etc. I haven't even read your article

No you can't Mavis, absolutely.

What do you mean by they switched languages?

Joilei so you don't speak German well enough to read the papers yet want us to believe your statement that far right crime presents a worse problem in terms of resources, impact etc? No, sorry not convinced. When I learned Spanish in Spain, I read papers and looked up all words I didn't know. I learned bit by bit but it took enthusiasm, time and effort. In terms of translation services for NHS patients, how did people get by before these phone a translation services were available? Most often people will bring a friend, relative or spouse to critical appointments. People are better off learning the language of the country they live in, it's comment sense.

Not me sports it was four mummy pointing that out.

Oh I see Jolie, how funny well we have cross posted then, you saying the major problem was far right groups etc and my article from the times, which is about a leaked document from German police and the fear and problems of migrant crime coming, which they will struggle to cope with, drugs, violent attacks, sex crimes etc and radicalization. This was a cross post with you saying it was all about the far right putting pressure on resources

Jolie I speak my DH language additionally to others and spend a good deal more than the odd week in Spain. Please have the goodness not to make 'snap' judgements when you cannot be aware of facts. It's very rude you know.

Gobbolino cat - far right crime and police inability to deal with it is a huge issue in Germany. Just have a Google for the NSU murders - a rightwing terrorist cell murdering immigrants over a of years, without being properly investigated, or look at the scary high number of arson attacks on refugee shelters. It's not helped when police vans have right wing magazines on display in their windscreen as happened quite recently.