It seems someone in Germany has woken up and smelled the coffee

[ProfessorPreciseaBug]

This from Reuters..

www.spiegel.de/international/europe/following-the-path-of-the-paris-terror-weapons-a-1083461.html#ref=nl-international

Germany is proposing to demand that refugees integrate into German life or loose rights of residency.. It appears to include learning Grman and not treating women as second class...If only some of our politicians would do likewise.

*Core not credit

What is 'British' though?

I guess you look at what is "british" in the same way as you look at what is "american".

You encourage integration, ensure that the residents of the country speak the language, learn about the culture, the history and the laws and what is and is not acceptable in terms of treatment of others. You encourage people to feel proud of being a part of it (not an easy thing given that many of us born in the UK don't seem to feel particularly around of it).

particularly "proud" of it

I don't think the americans do encourage multiculturalism. You have to pledge allegiance to the flag every day in school!

I don't think that's incompatible with multiculturalism. The American model (in theory! more complicated in practice of course...) is that you can keep your original culture, as long as you also adopt the principles of the Constitution. It's having both together.

That's why they refer to their minorities as Italian-American, Chinese-American, etc. That's why there's no official language. In fact many Americans think the pendulum has gone way too far towards multiculturalism they're probably the ones voting for Trump

I think that's what I'm advocating too though. Nobody is saying that you have to completely let go of your culture/religion, just that you have to integrate and buy into the culture of your country of residence.

"But in practice, cultures are surprisingly adaptable, and cultural amalgamation happens naturally - as long as people are treated with respect, not discriminated against, etc (that's where we failed in France...)"

But surely part of the problem in France is to do with its location compared to the UK and the relative ease with which bombs can be carried through the continent.

Also multiculturalism isn't really working in the UK. We have a pretty fragmented society where people tend on the whole to stick to their own. Harmful practices and attitudes continue. The law on FGM has been in place for ages but few if any convictions made.

I admired the French for taking a stand against the veil in public life. Why shouldn't they say "these are the values we've fought for and anyone who comes here needs to abide by them"?

Interesting discussion. Marking place to read later when at home.

Theydontknow, location is not really the problem, no. We grow our own terrorists. Not sure how France being an island would have helped with the Charlie Hebdo attacks, for instance.

Why shouldn't they say "these are the values we've fought for and anyone who comes here needs to abide by them"?

There's a few problems with this (but a lot of French people do agree with you). First, we're talking about a post-colonial population whose countries we invaded way back when, so it's a bit rich for us to give them lessons about "what we fought for". Secondly, many of them were explictly invited to France in the 1950s when we needed more cheap labour, and no mentions of "values to abide by" were made then. The second- and third-generations were born here, they didn't choose to come. Thirdly, the "values" are applied hypocritically, there is a huge double standard. Weirdly our laws against "visible signs of religion" only seem to apply to Muslim women, not to people wearing Christian crosses, for instance. And the official justification for the hiqab ban was "security", which everyone knows was just an excuse to not be accused of infringement on religious liberties. But fourthly and most importantly, in my view, it just DOES NOT WORK. All we've done with this attitude is manage to anger and marginalise even more a (French-born) section of our population that was already feeling discriminated against (and with good reason). All we've managed to do is give more ammunition to those who prey on the young and try to radicalise them.

I hear what you're saying about the dangers of fragmentation in a multicultural society, which is why I said it's a balancing act. The French way is the other end of the spectrum, and believe me, it's not a good solution either. The answer is somewhere in the middle.

I suggest some of you try the ex-pat thing and embrace someone's else's culture then come back and let me know how you get on!

Germany has always had these requirements. The residency test isn't that hard but does have questions like what year the Berlin wall went up etc I think it is similar to the British citizenship test.

Whilst I am grateful that Germany allows my family to live and work here (I have two DC born here who will be and a third who is already bilingual) and I can speak German myself, it is bloody hard going to 'embrace a culture'.
Do I speak the language? Yes.
Do I eat the food? Yes.
Do I like the music? Some, yes.
Do I support Germany in the Eurovision? Not this year
Will I always feel like an 'Inselaffe' (island ape as my DD's teacher so charmingly calls her as banter)? Probably.

Big difference between falling in love with the country and one of its citizens, and setting up home here with someone of your own nationality. I am not sure I can explain the feeling of being 'other', the isolation, the culture shock adequately and this is still western Europe. So I totally understand why people cling onto their identity. The treatment of women by men from cultures where women are treated as inferior isn't that all of them is a different thing entirely: whatever your culture or background, you follow the law of your host country and if you break the law you accept the consequences.

^ what chalala said is interesting: for Germany and guest workers (Max Frisch: they asked for robots they got people). I work with Germans with Turkish ancestry and they/their parents/their kids have sometimes suffered from discrimination, particularly in the school system which labels you age 11.

I am currently looking at gaining dual citizenship for my DH home country (Portugal) and one of the requirements is to demonstrate knowledge of the language, the culture and history of Portugal and have demonstrated an amount of integration and participation in the Portuguese community and knowledge of the country's values. In other words before they give me a passport they require me to demostrate that I want to participate fully in Portguese society and the community, not just pay lip service to it. Do I think that's unfair? No not really.

I'm not expecting something for nothing and there will be a lot of gains for me by doing this.

I guess the issue is when some of the values of the home country are almost diametrically opposite to some of the host country's. Yes we do have laws on some of the practices like FGM and forced marriage but it seems to be less than effective. These practices I see as not compatible with humanitarian values much less being particularly British as such.

Kimmy your post resonates with me because that's how I feel about Britain... especially re: the Eurovision

But Chala, how many muslims happily go about their day in france? without wearing veil, and it was never an issue for them? how many muslims are integrated?a great many must be, other wise there would be a civil war in france.

France's entry this year is one of the favourites chala despite it being their first entry with...shock, horror...some English in the lyrics

m.youtube.com/?gl=DE#/watch?v=boYQovCybYQ j'ai cherché Amir

democracy
the rule of law
individual liberty
mutual respect for and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs and for those without faith.

www.doingsmsc.org.uk/british-values/

"our way of life" to me means being an open and tolerant society based on equal opportunity, freedom of press, transparency, accountability of government etc. Of course, these are ideals, but over all we are closer to these than many other societies, but of course we are not the only ones. Actively promoting democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty, mutual respect for and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs and for those without faith is a good start and necessary. Many parents today, not just from 'migrant' backgrounds but native British / English people too, do not know that much about democracy other than voting for BB or BGT

To those who mock these values, have you ever had to face imprisonment because of your opinion as happens in too many MENA countries including Turkey? Or if you happen to belong to a religion, sexual orientation, ethnicity that is in the minority, have you have faced institutionalised violence and murder as an everyday experience as minority Christians, Jews or gays face in Pakistan, North Africa etc? Probably not if you live in the UK.

Let's treasure and promote such important values.

I prefer our way of life, where i can go about my business without fear of imprisonment, intimidation, violence or murder purely because I do not agree with the governments latest politics.

Oh of course Gobbolina, a decent chunk of our muslim population is happily integrated. In fact they're being amazingly good-natured in my opinion, given how they're demonised daily in the French media.

without wearing veil, and it was never an issue for them?

See, that's the interesting bit - the veil issue is a relatively new problem. Many of the French muslims who insist on wearing headscarves come from areas with no tradition of head-covering. It's partly an effort to claim an identity for themselves, and in a way the anti-Islam atmosphere in France only makes them more determined.

France's entry this year is one of the favourites chala despite it being their first entry with...shock, horror...some English in the lyrics

Not true Kimmy, not true!!!

Allow me to re-establish the historical truth - I refer you to this 2008 gem:

(I actually did rather like it, too!)

"what chalala said is interesting: for Germany and guest workers (Max Frisch: they asked for robots they got people). I work with Germans with Turkish ancestry and they/their parents/their kids have sometimes suffered from discrimination, particularly in the school system which labels you age 11."

Ha, that's interesting because I once was one of those children in Germany. And being 'foreign' has defined my life, not in a good way. I still am grateful i grew up there though; if my dp had not emigrated to Germany I would now be stuck with Mr Erdogan and his antics.

May also politely remind that xenophobia and racism exist in all societies. Turkish people can be incredibly racist or xenophobic including against Europeans who live there. One German friend who went to school in Istanbul and who has a german mother experienced so much open prejudice. Sorry but Europeans are not the only ones who are arrogant, racist and xenophobic. Ususally its people who have not travelled or lived in another country for a while who are the most narrow minded.

Couldn't they do something else instead? A nice piece of jewellry with a symbol of faith perhaps. Then it would identify them as their faith etc but still comply? Why does it have to be a head covering or face covering particularly?

My DH Muslim colleagues wife doesn't wear a headscarf and seems to manage fine. But it does seem to be a new thing of the full face veil and is mainly amongst younger women.

Hanging my head in shame chala, adore La ritournelle.
sinoor absolutely but knowing the system yourself, surely you would concede that Gymnasium is weighted against those with a Migrationshintergrund. Until that is properly addressed there will always be inequality.

The heads carve is cultural not religious as is FGM etc. An increasingly political Islam in some of Europe's mosques promotes the Salafist, an an ultra-conservative version of Islam. It's quite interesting how many European 'lefties' argue so vehemently for being accepting of this ultra-conservative version of Islam, which ignores human rights whilst being passionately opposed to any 'conservative' political rhetoric in their own governments/cultural contexts. In the meantime 'lefties' in Turkey and many MENA countries end up killed or in jail because of spreading ultra-conservative versions of Islam.

*head scarf

Are people mocking those values, sinoorsomethinglikethat? I thought people had said that they were worthy and to be embraced/respected.

And I agree with your definition of 'our way of life' - although I do suspect that it's been used on this thread to mean something more parochial. Although as none of those who have used the phrase have come forward to say what they mean, I'm guilty of assumption at this stage

I'm also interested in the idea of how you participate in a country's community. If I moved to a new country, or I'd moved from another country to here, what would that look like? What would I have to do? Just trying to think what I do here to be part of my community - and it's difficult! I occasionally deliver leaflets for a local ward of a political party. I shop and socialise locally, so contribute to the local economy. But that's it! My DC are grown up, so don't go to school/college here any more, and I'm not a church goer. So how else would I demonstrate being part of the community?

"What is 'British' though?"

It's not a fixed thing but what 'we' make of it. The British values listed by Ofsted are a decent start.

Where are you based at the moment Biwi, apologies if you have mentioned it before but I could not find it. I have lived and worked in various countries and might have some ideas as to how to integrate with local communities but it depends on the community.