It seems someone in Germany has woken up and smelled the coffee

[ProfessorPreciseaBug]

This from Reuters..

www.spiegel.de/international/europe/following-the-path-of-the-paris-terror-weapons-a-1083461.html#ref=nl-international

Germany is proposing to demand that refugees integrate into German life or loose rights of residency.. It appears to include learning Grman and not treating women as second class...If only some of our politicians would do likewise.

I'm in London.

I'm not actually looking for ideas - I just wondered what it means, practically speaking, if you're being told that you have to demonstrate this. I suppose I was thinking that because I would find it hard to demonstrate, as a local, that it must be even harder for someone who wants to live here from another country.

haha, sorry i misunderstood, I'm sure you are well integrated in London, one of the most accepting places on Earth. I suppose volunteering, raising money for charity, getting involved in a political party, attending cultural events might be ways but nobody should be forced. The most tolerant people I have encountered were professional in the workplace in London, where it is common to work in diverse teams, that's my experience.

It's quite interesting how many European 'lefties' argue so vehemently for being accepting of this ultra-conservative version of Islam, which ignores human rights whilst being passionately opposed to any 'conservative' political rhetoric in their own governments/cultural contexts.

It's tough being a leftie, sinoor! (I'm one, if you couldn't tell :-) But you're right to point out the contradictions and difficulties, in fact it is tearing apart the French left, because there are different "leftist" values on both sides of the argument. The old guard want to protect the principles of secularism and human rights, the younger generations are more inclined to favour the principles of individual and religious freedom. Personally I feel that "secularism" is often used a useful cover for xenophobia (including by the left), which makes me a bit uncomfortable. But I certainly see both sides of the argument.

Chalalala - French laicite (which is not the same thing as secularism) is tolerant of religious freedom within the private domain. IMO the big issue facing France is a breakdown between the private and the public sphere of life, which is an intensely dated concept. Laicite cannot survive that breakdown.

I don't think anyone is claiming that they are uniquely British. They are British values, and yes they are shared with a lot of Europe, US, Aus etc, they don't have to be unique to be British.

"British values" mostly means WASP values.

Yes that's true BoboChic, I was simplifying the problem because I don't want to bore everyone (too much).

BIWI - 'our way of life' to me, means; accepting men & women are equal, accepting homosexuality & not thinking the people who practice it should be killed, being tolerant of all religions & generally embracing the wonderful diversity of this country - if you really don't get what 'our way of life' means I suggest you spend a couple of years living in Afghanistan ( might be easier than trying to explain it to you )

BIWI
I think they're fantastic values and of course we should agree to uphold them.
Actually, in PSHE lessons I think you'll find that a lot of that is taught already.

I think the current course content is what the NUT are complaining about ...so it is taught at the moment ...but they don't want to teach it.
Unless I've misunderstood something?
Like others horrified about the NUT said...find it really worrying that people like that are allowed to influence our DCs....

"breakdown between the private and the public sphere of life"

Interesting, would you mind giving some examples where private and public life in France converge? Thank you.

I think this whole upholding British values thing is just something the gov have come up with to show they are doing something, I don't actually think it will have a massive effect on the way immigrants choose to live in the uk.

What absolutely does need confronting head on is things like sharia law courts that exist in the uk- there should be some sort of legislation in place to close them down, sharia law has no place alongside the British justice system and should not be allowed. People involved should b punished accordingly.
Also things like education on relationships, it is not racist to aknowledge that the vast majority of immigrant men see themselves as superior to women and should be able to rape women as they please or abuse girls that in our country are underage but in their own country who would be married off at very young ages. Fgm being anther issue that needs serious thought, perhaps going as far as to say children of immigrants from countries that practice this should not be allowed a passport to leave the uk till they are over 16? I don't know what the answer is but something needs to be done.

Why so sniffy, SurferJet? I was asking for clarification - I wanted to know what you meant!

In France, private life is considered to be something quite separate to public life. That's how we have a President who sneaked out of his official residence on a scooter to see his mistress at night ;). And why the paparazzi aren't nearly as invasive in France. The right to maintain a dual persona has been enshrined in the very idea of being French for a long time. However,mglobalisation and the gradual influence of modern psychology is beginning to erode the farce of the upstanding, rule abiding public persona versus the private persona who dies what the hell he feels like (which includes believing religious jumbo jumbo).

""British values" mostly means WASP values."

I have no political science degree but why are they WASP values?

democracy - originates in Classical Greece
the rule of law - Aristotle wrote "Law should govern"
individual liberty - is intimately linked with consumerism and industrialism so not necessarily based on being a Protestant or anglo-saxon.

Thank you BoBo.
I wonder what globalisation, the movement of workers, Internet etc. will mean for societies going forward. At this point in time, it seems that the age of Enlightenment is rapidly being phased out to be replaced with more messy, less streamlined social experiences. The migrant influx from Africa and Asia is a fact of life in Europe now. I am curious, how Europe will be socially and politically organised in 20, 30 years. To me an increasingly diverse society is a good thing but how will we govern ourselves where expectations and cultures seem to differ so much? I hold on to the 'British values' as to me they enable people from different backgrounds to operate together.

I think British Values is a misnomer. The values the majority of Britain hold dear is probably a better way of putting it. Many of our values are shared with other countries in the world but not every country shares all of them. As someone else has said I tend to think of values like:

All children up to the age of 18 are educated, for free and learn the same things whether they are girls or boys.
Women and men can choose to do practically any job they want if they are qualified.
Men and women treated equally.
Domestic abuse or sexual harassment of either gender is not tolerated.
Men and women mix freely and segregation doesn't happen except where necessary (like women/men's loos, changing rooms etc).

Homosexual or transgender people are not persecuted.
Freedom of worship as long as it is within the law
British law trumps any other law - our police shouldn't be restricted because a particular set of people follow 'their' law. You obey the law of the country you are in end of story.
Tolerance for others as long as they work within all the above.

And I know some cases slip through these values - it's a country not Utopia - but most Brits (whatever their original background) try hard to work within these.

As I said, all of these 'values' are shared with other countries but we have all heard of countries where children of either gender cannot get a good education because they can't afford it or can't get to school or where a woman can be stoned for not behaving in an acceptable way. Or where Christians or Muslims (add your own as you feel fit) cannot just walk to their local place of worship and worship freely.

I think it's important that these values are spoken about in schools and in communities. They don't have to be sold as British Values - just as values we try to live to in Britain and ones which we expect anyone moving to this country to also live by. That's a totally different thing.

Women and men can choose to do practically any job they want if they are qualified.

Do you think they can? Practically speaking? I don't.

Men and women treated equally.

Are they treated equally in the uk? What about the pay gap? Sexual discrimination is rife!

Domestic abuse or sexual harassment of either gender is not tolerated.

Well this is a pretty recent phenomenon so I'm not sure that counts as a core value. Rape within marriage was not recognised until the 1990s

Homosexual or transgender people are not persecuted.

Except they often still are and many Brits have no issue with this

British law trumps any other law - our police shouldn't be restricted because a particular set of people follow 'their' law. You obey the law of the country you are in end of story.

Except when it's the EU

Tolerance for others as long as they work within all the above.

Listen to any radio phone in program and see how tolerate you find most of the Brits phoning in!

It's an age old problem - "British values" aren't espoused by many, many British people so why should they be foisted onto migrants? Why should a migrant have to speak perfect English when most British teens don't? Why should a migrant have to know about Oliver Cromwell when most Brits don't?

It's an excuse for intolerance and othering, that's all.

JolieMadame

"It's an age old problem - "British values" aren't espoused by many, many British people so why should they be foisted onto migrants? Why should a migrant have to speak perfect English when most British teens don't? Why should a migrant have to know about Oliver Cromwell when most Brits don't?"

Simple - the migrant is being given something very precious by Britain, namely access to our advanced economy, public services, and stable society, and so owes us something in return, namely their best effort to integrate with our society.

It's win-win - except for the cultural relativists who hate this country while enjoying all the advantages it offers.

This thread is very different to many on MN.
How could you force them to learn the language?

the migrant is being given something very precious by Britain, namely access to our advanced economy, public services, and stable society

ahem. The same things I and many others escaped

It's all relative isn't it? For a Syrian refugee, yes maybe. But a Parisian on secondment in London? No. For a swede here by marriage? No. For a German here for a business opportunity? No.

Your idea of what a migrant comprises seems heavily weighted in favour of Syrians clinging to the back of a truck, and for that reason I'm disinclined to believe that you have a full grasp of the issue.

And your Syrians aren't going to give two hoots whether the uk in is the EU or not, so Brexit won't be making any difference.

the government wondering where to make more cuts?

simple:
get rid of interpreters/translators for anyone choosing to liver in theis country. you choose to live in another country/are forced by con flict to live in another country...learn the bloody language!

I speak as a 6 year old who came to this country from elsewhwre, my parents BOTH learnt the basics of English BEFORE arriving, they speak with good vocabulary now, they didn't hae interpreters anyway at the time, I couldn't speak a word of English and I LEARNT quickly.

my English isn't perfect but more than enough to get by, and more as time goes by.

councils spend millions on interpreters .

BTW my English is better than my typos ...and OP I agree with you totally.

JolieMadame British people who don't subscribe to the things that you describe are also 'othered'. People who don't know who Oliver Cromwell do not get great jobs, people who can't speak English as well as someone else = ditto, people who marginalise homosexuals are frowned upon, etc. etc.. None of these processes are perfectly executed but just because Brits also do something 'badly, does not mean that other 'bad' should be accepted for that reason.

Just because you cannot speak English when you first come to this country and need an interpreter doesn't mean 5/10 years down the line you shouldnt have learnt enough English to communicate at least enough to go to the supermarket or doctors by yourself. My DH and many of his colleagues came to this country with limited English and have all managed to learn and very few have used interpreters at any point. Yes it's not easy but with immersion in a language it can be done. Hell my mother in law was picking it up when she came for a 2 week visit and she is older. But I saw many instances of people who cannot communicate the basics and don't really try to - they aren't just from certain communities either. The Polish lady next door is going to really struggle once her daughter starts school for example!

I do know about Oliver Cromwell by the way and the Civil War period in detail and lots of British and world history too, but I'm boring and geeky like that!