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Explosions at Brussels airport.

194 replies

OhYouBadBadKitten · 22/03/2016 07:43

2 explosions. Airport being evacuated. All flights cancelled.
On bbc at the moment.

OP posts:
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crappymummy · 22/03/2016 21:11

Are you regretting that a backlash isn't severe enough?

What would be an appropriate backlash? How could we backlash in such a way as to really honour those who were murdered today?

Do please give details, I am interested

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OhYouBadBadKitten · 22/03/2016 21:26

crappymummy, don't give up, you are talking a huge amount of sense.
I really wish people would stop carrying their anti-muslim baggage onto every vaguely related thread. And I say that as a catholic whose faith has had to overcome some huge challenges due to an evil minority who in no way represent the God I know and live.

OP posts:
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GobbolinoCat · 22/03/2016 21:35

I really wish people would stop carrying their anti-muslim baggage onto every vaguely related thread

I would say todays events have more than a vague relation to Islam.

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SpringingIntoAction · 22/03/2016 21:48

Shins

Console yourself with the knowledge that the Guardian has just had to reduce its staff because fewer people are subscribing to its ridiculously leftist nonsense.

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shins · 22/03/2016 21:49

A Europe-wide endeavour to root out extremism in schools, mosques, community centres. Increased surveillance of imams and "community leaders". Deportation or imprisonment of known Isis recruits and recruiters. Compulsory education for all children about their rights and responsibilities in the societies they live in. Zero tolerance of FGM, forced marriage, polygamy, little girls of eight walking around swathed from head to toe in black while their brothers wear shorts. There's been far too much tolerance of backward self-ghettoising cultures in the name of diversity. Why did the people of Molenbeek protect mass murderer Saleh Abdeslam for months and pelt the police with stones when they arrested him? What does that tell you about their values and priorities? How was that allowed to happen?

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SpringingIntoAction · 22/03/2016 21:56

Did you see the Flemish President on the TV? His attitude seemed to me one of 'shit happens' with accompanied apathay.

Belgium is a failed state. It has 19? separate Police forces and seems incapable of providing effective governance. A great place for the EU HQ. Incompetence meets apathy

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7Days · 22/03/2016 21:57

Failed state is a bit much. Its hardly Somalia.

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Wordsaremything · 22/03/2016 22:14

so what do we do? What?

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Wordsaremything · 22/03/2016 22:23

shins has provided a good list
How is next question.
F g m for example.
Health care providers must see it so often.
Do they compromise their patient or not?

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PausingFlatly · 22/03/2016 22:42

Sorry, I don't get the cryptic duck posts?

Daesh are completely open about their agenda and revolting proud of their thousands of murders. What's the mystery thing we're supposed to be cleverly deducing about them?

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Puzzledandpissedoff · 22/03/2016 23:31

Why did the people of Molenbeek protect mass murderer Saleh Abdeslam for months and pelt the police with stones when they arrested him?

Come to that, why were local youths reported to have referred to him as their "hero"? Can it really be that sections of the community lionize someone involved in mass murder - and if so, how does this sit with the claim that "ordinary muslims" are just as appalled by this horror as everyone else?

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TheNewStatesman · 23/03/2016 03:35

Why did the people of Molenbeek protect mass murderer Saleh Abdeslam for months and pelt the police with stones when they arrested him? What does that tell you about their values and priorities? How was that allowed to happen?

this

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Lanark2 · 23/03/2016 05:05

Its an example of how unstrategic daesh are. Preventing travel damages economies sure, but that includes damaging the demand for oil, which finances Daesh direct, and is the source of Saudi Arabian influence on world politics. Oil prices are already falling, and Saudi Arabian overproduction isn't helping, but I suspect that overproduction is to influence daesh

The difficulty is, that the more financially polarised the 'west' becomes, the more of the world population there is who would actually benefit from a complete economic reset (the end of 'western' empire). People who are in relative and absolute poverty and powerlessness with no clear ladder out of it no matter what they do are most easy to radicalise. some countries are using fraud and corruption (cough Nigeria cough) to try to lever themselves into a world economy, and some are using military influence. Unless we put a brake on the type of wealth and opportunity inequality we are accelerating towards, we will see an economic and political reset becoming increasingly attractive to a wider set of people globally.

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ThenLaterWhenItGotDark · 23/03/2016 06:41

Why did the local community protect the IRA henchmen for years?

Why are there entire communities in Sicily and Calabria protecting the godfathers who have been on the run for years?

Why do Barbara Windsor and Morrisey send flowers to Kray funerals?

Because for some warped beings, violence and murder is sexy. Romantic. And they're convinced above all that the means to the end (whatever that end is, is justified)

That's why some of the inhabitants of Molenbeek hero worship their man.

It's what happens.

Not just in terrorism. Not just in Muslim-led terrorism.

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mummytime · 23/03/2016 07:00

I am horrified at the bun fight this thread seems to have turned into.

The problem in Belgium is that the Muslim community in these areas is in no way "integrated" into the main Belgian community. A lot of anti-muslim rhetoric is not going to build bridges between communities, but build walls instead.

And isolated communities are just the kind of places that terrorism and other forms of violence can flourish.

And don't blame it on the Muslim community themselves; how many Muslim friends do you have? How much do you interact with people outside your own social group?

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fourmummy · 23/03/2016 07:10

The difficulty is, that the more financially polarised the 'west' becomes, the more of the world population there is who would actually benefit from a complete economic reset (the end of 'western' empire). People who are in relative and absolute poverty and powerlessness with no clear ladder out of it no matter what they do are most easy to radicalise Some of this is correct but not entirely.I watched a great lecture recently, which celebrates Darwin's birthday (here. The actual talk starts at ten minutes in):

richarddawkins.net/2016/03/the-darwin-day-lecture-2016-with-jerry-coyne-evolution-and-atheism-best-friends-forever/

Prof Coyne makes many interesting points but two clear points stood out. He posed the question that if you present people with the 'fact' of evolution, why do they continue to believe in God? ('fact' here means something that is empirically (observed) true. We can never know anything to be absolutely true but, given overwhelming evidence, we can know something to be so nearly true as to make it pointless to talk about anything else. It's in this way that Richard Dawkins says that we are all essentially agnostics and, in an absolute philosophical sense, atheism is incorrect). The reason why people reject truth is because they have been blinkered by religion, because they have been exposed to religion far earlier than evolution. These concepts are hard to shift. Studies show that you need to give up 40% of your religious belief before you can increase your acceptance of evolution by 10%. The second important point that he makes is that research shows that there is a high correlation between societal 'dysfunctionality' (high child mortality rates, no health care for citizens, inequality) and religiosity. Prof Coyne suggests that if citizens don't feel looked after and cared for, they find religion (Marx's 'opium of the people' concept works here). He cites the Scandinavian model as high functionality/low religiosity societies (US is 'dysfunctional', as are many others). Two points stand out to me from this talk:

  1. Radicalisation is not the problem. Religion is. Government insistence that people are somehow 'radicalised' from a non-radical base is misplaced and incorrect. They have already been 'got' by religion. We therefore focus on religion per se and not just on 'radicalisation' processes (the point being that religion is already problematical).
  2. Dysfunctionality in societies, both within and comparatively, is a problem that co-exists alongside religion (correlation is not causation, so we don't know which is the cause). You are quite right above to cite inequality as a problem. It is only one factor, though. There are others, which constitute a dysfunctional society(high teenage pregnancy rates, high child mortality rates, smoking rates, lack of health case, lack of pensions provision, etc..).

    What do we do?
  3. This is 'easy' - eradicate religion, starting in childhood
  4. This is difficult - how do we fix 'citizens who are uncared for by their societies' - so many factors here, including domestic policy, foreign policy, etc.. ,
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megletthesecond · 23/03/2016 07:30

yy stairs there's something of the loner mentality there. But how do you get these people and small groups. The security services must be at breaking point.

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buffyajp · 23/03/2016 07:45

Crappymummy please don't go. Like oybbk I too am Catholic although a fairly new one. You are one of the few talking sense and you should not have to defend yourself. Those people who are blaming the whole of Islam for this are giving these evil people exactly what they want. They want everyone else to turn against ordinary peace loving Muslims so they can use it to fuel hatred and groom more young impressionable people. It's a shame some people seem only too happy to give them what they want.

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shins · 23/03/2016 07:59

Mummytime I have Muslim-raised friends but they are quite westernised and highly critical of its misogyny and intolerance. They're women. My own critical views on Islam originate from (i) growing up in a very Catholic country -a virtual theocracy at the time- and having firsthand knowledge of a mindset that discourages critical thinking, oppresses women and crushes initiative by evoking God's will and the afterlife (ii) a member of my extended family's escape and 30 year long exile from her Muslim family who disowned her for marrying a non-Muslim and (iii) living and working alongside young second generation Muslim women in a large European city for a couple of years in the 90s. I got to see close-up their struggles with their parents (who hated the country they had come to live in and despised its culture) and their own desire to live as young Europeans. Some of them had been married off as teenagers to men they hardly knew, illiterate men from "back home". I was very affected by their experiences so I guess my perspective is unclouded by the moral relativism I see when liberals are discussing Islam, where the fear of racism trumps everything. I've also read widely on the subject and even struggled through the Koran.

I mention the above to point out that not all critics of Islam are coming from a place of narrow minded ignorance, as hinted at by many posters on these discussions.

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fourmummy · 23/03/2016 08:01

Bun fight? No. Just a bunch of desperate people trying to figure out wtf we are going to do. A colleague was caught up in yesterday's attack. I wonder each day if my kids will come home. I don't fancy decades of this. Did you not read what I wrote above? High religiosity is never a good idea. You can believe what the fuck you like as long as those wrong beliefs are not dragged into education, health, politics, everyday life. We know why people turn to religion - they feel that life is shit. It's been known for years. So what do we do about it?

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shins · 23/03/2016 08:02

Also have to add I've travelled (sometimes alone) in three Muslim countries and lived in one for a few months.

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BillSykesDog · 23/03/2016 09:03

And don't blame it on the Muslim community themselves; how many Muslim friends do you have? How much do you interact with people outside your own social group?

Interesting question. Considering that where I grew up and went to school is one of the most ethnically diverse areas in the country interesting to me personally and none of my in laws or extended family are British and I've spent time living in Southall, Dalston and Bethnal Green over the years.

Using Facebook as a very unscientific assessment I'd say that about 70% of my FB are non-British or non-White in origin. I'd say about 20% European, 15% Indian, 15 % African 10 % Afro-Caribbean, 4% Far East and 4% South American. None of these Muslim as far as I know.

But only 2% Muslim. (Would possibly be more like 3% except I had to delete a girl I went to school with who posted support for the Sultan of Brunei stoning gays). These are two people of Turkish origin, one Iranian and a Pakistani girl who lives an almost totally secular lifestyle.

If you look at areas I've lived, worked and socialised in and the population of the UK as a whole this should be more like 20%.

So what's different? Personally I would say that when working or living close to Muslims the norm, at best, is being politely kept at arms length. Neighbours who will talk to you if there's a major problem or say hello if prompted but will not been drawn into general 'how are you' social chit chat. Social invitations always declined and never extended. Relationships with people outside of their own group deeply, deeply disapproved of, lack of English skills and no attempt to improve them or interact with those who don't speak their own first language, tendency for a preference for self-employment or in professions dominated by other Muslims so that interactions with non-Muslims are kept to a minimum. Choosing to live in areas with as many Muslims and as few non-Muslims as possible and socialising almost entirely within their own community.

At worst, active removal from the outside community by choosing to wear niqabs etc, outright hostility (Why are you living here? This is a Muslim area. We don't want you here. Spitting, racial insults) or an outright refusal to interact on any level. Keeping mouths closed about horrendous crimes committed by Muslims against non- Muslims or actively covering them up (Rotherham).

I find it tiresome to be told that this is all somehow the fault of British people when it certainly doesn't seem to extend to other groups such as Hindus, Sikhs and Christian Africans in anything like the same level. And finger pointing at the rest of society telling them that being shot or blown up is their fault because we've not been inclusive or made enough of an effort --when for the last 20 years that's all our society has been geared up for is insulting victim blaming.

I'm getting pretty tired of the 'but we can't do anything' rhetoric too. Given that these are communities where apparently people who decide to leave Islam or commit other sins like disobeying their parents by not marrying who they want are hounded in fear of their lives and forced into hiding and widely shunned by these same communities, why don't they do the same to extremists? Why do people like Samantha Lewthwaite, Anjem Chaudhury and Michael Adebalejo live normal lives peddling extremism from within these communities but people who transgress by not conforming to Islamic ideology are hounded and persecuted by the same communities?

It makes little sense unless, in fact, extremism is far more acceptable and palatable to a lot of Muslim communities than being a Muslim who is not extreme enough.

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Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/03/2016 09:43

A lot of anti-muslim rhetoric is not going to build bridges between communities

For that matter, neither is ceaseless anti-west rhetoric ... or claims that folk are blaming the whole of Islam / demanding muslims apologize personally ... or insistence that everyone who doesn't toe the desired line is racist/islamophobic/bigoted ... or any of the excellent behavioural examples just given by BillSykes

Doesn't stop them being endlessly trotted out, though Sad

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fourmummy · 23/03/2016 09:50

Doesn't stop them being endlessly trotted out, though It's a very useful thing to do though, as people are thinking. I have exhausted my own sources. I know what they are going to say. I need new thoughts, new directions, new ideas. Even a same idea, expressed from a different angle, can set off a new train of thought. It has become apparent that no-one knows what to do and yet we are facing a big problem. Unless the people voted in by us step up to the plate, things are going to get a whole lot worse. And this we do know.

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Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/03/2016 10:06

Even a same idea, expressed from a different angle, can set off a new train of thought

I believe this is a very valid point, and it links in with an especially observant remark made by Bill Sykes: Given that these are communities where apparently people who decide to leave Islam or commit other sins like disobeying their parents by not marrying who they want are hounded in fear of their lives and forced into hiding and widely shunned by these same communities, why don't they do the same to extremists? Why do people like Samantha Lewthwaite, Anjem Chaudhury and Michael Adebalejo live normal lives peddling extremism from within these communities but people who transgress by not conforming to Islamic ideology are hounded and persecuted by the same communities?

It's perhaps interesting that the reasons often given for punishing apostasy/disobedience in marriage, etc, are that the "sinner's" behaviour is unislamic and shames/damages the community ... but doesn't this apply a thousand fold to the minority of terrorists in their midst? In all fairness I haven't the least doubt that most muslims loathe this behaviour too, but as was said, it doesn't appear to prevent these evil folk living freely among them

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