Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

investigate 9/11

1000 replies

BeetrootsResolution · 30/12/2006 12:39

My uncle sent me this and thought it was an appropriate time to share it with you

The Truth?

OP posts:
nutcracker · 30/12/2006 15:40

Ahh right ok, I get that bit now (i think) but if that plane didn't hit it, where is that plane now ??

JanH · 30/12/2006 15:40

Tinker, this is true but the metal used should have withstood temps up to 3000C and it didn't reach anything like that - allegedly.

Some of the supposed hijackers had had their passports stolen some time before 9/11 and are still alive. Allegedly.

JanH · 30/12/2006 15:42

Oh, according to a bit of the evidence near the end, 2 of the planes (ie flight 93 and the Pentagon one) still exist. (The other 2 don't)

nutcracker · 30/12/2006 15:42

So the passengers are where ???

Blandmum · 30/12/2006 15:44

true but at1000 degrees it loses 50% of ites integrety and falls down!

The trouble is that if you don't understand physics (and why should you ) it seems sensible that a plane......which is tiny compared to the size of the twin towers...shouldn't be able to bring down a building that size.

The kinetic energy the plane would have on hitting the buiding is given by 1/2 MV2 (you'll have to trust me on this)

Guestimate figures from dh on the mass (M) of the fully fueled plane would be that its mass was about 300,000kg. It would be traveling (V) at around 150 meters a second (m/s)....wich squared would be 22500m/s/s

so the kinetic energy would be 300,000 times 22500= 6750000000 joules of energy. To give you some bench mark, 224,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Joules would totaly vaporise the earth.

and that is just the kinetic energy, there would also be a massive release of heat energy from the vaporised aviation fuel

SenoraPartridge · 30/12/2006 15:47

But Jan, why would they cover up a missile hit? I know that sometimes things don't happen as we are told, but there is usually a reason for a conspiracy and I simply don't see one. Unless it's all being done by the airport security guards union because they thought they might run out of work, that is....

Blandmum · 30/12/2006 15:47

BTW, can you tell that I am trying not to the writing work that I should be doing???

Sobernow · 30/12/2006 15:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JanH · 30/12/2006 15:52

I did wonder, mb

SP, it's all about financial shenanigans, gold, and an excuse to attack Afghanistan and Iraq, supposedly.

nutty, this is the bit that isn't explained (but doesn't bear thinking about )

Anyway I am being booted off by a very fed-up DD1 who has been waiting 4 hours for the PC - will catch up later.

Blandmum · 30/12/2006 15:52

Beacsue it has suffered significant structural damage when the rest of the building fell, and it was unsafe.

Items were found after lockerbie, scattered widley. It happens.

SenoraPartridge · 30/12/2006 15:54

I don't think even Bush wouls sacrifice so many of his own like that. and the majority of those killed in the wtc were really his own - stock brokers and the like. as it gioes if the people affected had mostly been immigrant cleaners or something I'd think the conspiracy theories were more crdible.

Mind you, I did find the speed with which they named the hijackers very unlikely.

Pruni · 30/12/2006 15:54

Message withdrawn

nutcracker · 30/12/2006 15:55

No one will ever really know will they (i sure won't unless it is spelt out lol).

All sounds like an episode of Lost.

SenoraPartridge · 30/12/2006 15:56

pruni - I think that was the flight where supposedly the passengers all shouted "let's roll" and overcame the hijackers. It crasheed in a feild. But lots of people think that's just a story they told the relatives and really the plane was shot down. that one's probably the most credible of the conspiracy theries imo.

Pruni · 30/12/2006 16:00

Message withdrawn

dolally · 30/12/2006 16:01

has this film been shown on British Tv yet? It was shown in Portugal 6 months ago.

Pruni · 30/12/2006 16:01

Message withdrawn

Blandmum · 30/12/2006 16:01

Re the 'Planes escorting 93'

'FLIGHT 93
Cockpit recordings indicate the passengers on United Airlines Flight 93 teamed up to attack their hijackers, forcing down the plane near Shanksville, in southwestern Pennsylvania. But conspiracy theorists assert Flight 93 was destroyed by a heat-seeking missile from an F-16 or a mysterious white plane. Some theorists add far-fetched elaborations: No terrorists were aboard, or the passengers were drugged. The wildest is the "bumble planes" theory, which holds that passengers from Flights 11, 175 and 77 were loaded onto Flight 93 so the U.S. government could kill them.

The White Jet
CLAIM: At least six eyewitnesses say they saw a small white jet flying low over the crash area almost immediately after Flight 93 went down. BlogD.com theorizes that the aircraft was downed by "either a missile fired from an Air Force jet, or via an electronic assault made by a U.S. Customs airplane reported to have been seen near the site minutes after Flight 93 crashed." WorldNetDaily.com weighs in: "Witnesses to this low-flying jet ... told their story to journalists. Shortly thereafter, the FBI began to attack the witnesses with perhaps the most inane disinformation ever--alleging the witnesses actually observed a private jet at 34,000 ft. The FBI says the jet was asked to come down to 5000 ft. and try to find the crash site. This would require about 20 minutes to descend."

FACT: There was such a jet in the vicinitya Dassault Falcon 20 business jet owned by the VF Corp. of Greensboro, N.C., an apparel company that markets Wrangler jeans and other brands. The VF plane was flying into Johnstown-Cambria airport, 20 miles north of Shanksville. According to David Newell, VF's director of aviation and travel, the FAA's Cleveland Center contacted copilot Yates Gladwell when the Falcon was at an altitude "in the neighborhood of 3000 to 4000 ft."not 34,000 ft. "They were in a descent already going into Johnstown," Newell adds. "The FAA asked them to investigate and they did. They got down within 1500 ft. of the ground when they circled. They saw a hole in the ground with smoke coming out of it. They pinpointed the location and then continued on." Reached by PM, Gladwell confirmed this account but, concerned about ongoing harassment by conspiracy theorists, asked not to be quoted directly.'

Fighters may have escourted other jets, but not 93. More cobblers.

Pruni · 30/12/2006 16:05

Message withdrawn

Sobernow · 30/12/2006 16:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RubberDuckWithCranberrySauce · 30/12/2006 16:10

Pruni - bear in mind that news reporting at the time things are happening aren't always accurate and a lot can be hearsay.

That sort of reporting has been going on in disasters for a long time - only got to look at historical reporting for the Titanic disaster - many newspapers ran with the news that the Titanic had hit a burg but was being safely towed to a US harbour by another ship and was due to arrive in a few days...

NotQuiteCockney · 30/12/2006 16:14

Ok, if this was a conspiracy, how many people would have to be in on it? Hundreds? Thousands? Can that many people keep a secret? Not a chance.

Never mind, that if Bush arranged all this, surely he would have bothered reacting to the whole thing in a slightly more competant way, rather than hanging about a Florida classroom, and then randomly flying from place to place for the rest of the day.

Blandmum · 30/12/2006 16:17

Sobernow, the two strikes were at 8.46am and 9.03am. Now, when I have worked in offices, they were just about at their fullest at those times, with all the usual staff. So the 'they did it at a time when they 'only' killed the cleaners' theory doesn't hold water.

Tinker · 30/12/2006 16:18

I like this post on another message board about this film:

If you really believe it was all faked, and all a conspiracy, can you tell us where the people on those four hijacked planes are? My brother knew someone on the plane hijacked from Dulles. That?s the one that landed on part of the Pentagon. Care to tell me what happened to him? Are you going to claim that everyone who saw the plane about to crash was lying?

Sunday, Sep. 3, 2006
Why The 9/11 Conspiracies Won?t Go Away
Turns out, we need grand theories to make sense of grand events, or the world just seems too random
By LEV GROSSMAN

Take a look, if you can stand it, at video footage of the World Trade Center collapsing. Your eye will naturally jump to the top of the screen, where huge fountains of dark debris erupt out of the falling towers. But fight your natural instincts. Look farther down, at the stories that haven?t collapsed yet.

In almost every clip you?ll see little puffs of dust spurting out from the sides of the towers. There are two competing explanations for these puffs of dust: 1) the force of the collapsing upper floors raised the air pressure in the lower ones so dramatically that it actually blew out the windows. And 2) the towers did not collapse from the impact of two Boeing 767s and the ensuing fires. They were destroyed in a planned, controlled demolition. The dust puffs you see on film are the detonations of explosives planted there before the attacks.

People who believe the second explanation live in a very different world from those who believe the first. In world No. 2, al-Qaeda is not responsible for the destruction of the World Trade Center. The U.S. government is. The Pentagon was not hit by a commercial jet; it was hit by a cruise missile. United Flight 93 did not crash after its occupants rushed the cockpit; it was deliberately taken down by a U.S. Air Force fighter. The entire catastrophe was planned and executed by federal officials in order to provide the U.S. with a pretext for going to war in the Middle East and, by extension, as a means of consolidating and extending the power of the Bush Administration.

The population of world No. 2 is larger than you might think. A Scripps-Howard poll of 1,010 adults last month found that 36% of Americans consider it ?very likely? or ?somewhat likely? that government officials either allowed the attacks to be carried out or carried out the attacks themselves. Thirty-six percent adds up to a lot of people. This is not a fringe phenomenon. It is a mainstream political reality.

Although the 9/11 Truth Movement, as many conspiracy believers refer to their passion, has been largely ignored by the mainstream media, it is flourishing on the Internet. One of the most popular conspiracy videos online is Loose Change, a 90-min. blizzard of statistics, photographs, documents, eyewitness accounts and expert testimony set to a trippy hip-hop backbeat. It?s designed to pick apart, point by point, the conventional narrative of what happened on Sept. 11, 2001.

For all its amateur production values-it was created by a pair of industrious twentysomethings using a laptop, pizza money and footage scavenged from the Internet-Loose Change is a compelling experience. Take the section about the attack on the Pentagon. As the film points out-and this is a tent-pole issue among 9/11 conspiracists-the crash site doesn?t look right. There?s not enough damage. The hole smashed in the Pentagon?s outer wall was 75 ft. wide, but a Boeing 757 has a 124-ft. wingspan. Why wasn?t the hole wider? Why does it look so neat?

Experts will tell you that the hole was punched by the plane?s fuselage, not its wings, which sheared off on impact. But then what happened to the wings? And the tail and the engines? Images of the crash site show hardly any of the wreckage you would expect from a building that?s been rammed by a commercial jet. The lawn, where the plane supposedly dragged a wing on approach, is practically pristine. The plane supposedly clipped five lampposts on its way in, but the lampposts in question show surprisingly little damage. And could Hani Hanjour, the man supposedly at the controls, have executed the maneuvers that the plane performed? He failed a flight test just weeks before the attack. And Pentagon employees reported smelling cordite after the hit, the kind of high explosive a cruise missile carries.

There?s something empowering about just exploring such questions. Loose Change appeals to the viewer?s common sense: it tells you to forget the official explanations and the expert testimony, and trust your eyes and your brain instead. It implies that the world can be grasped by laymen without any help or interference from the talking heads. Watching Loose Change, you feel as if you are participating in the great American tradition of self-reliance and nonconformist, antiauthoritarian dissent. You?re fighting the power. You?re thinking different. (Conspiracists call people who follow the government line ?sheeple.?) ?The goal of the movie was just really to get out there and show that there are alternate stories to what the mainstream media and the government will tell you,? says Korey Rowe, 23, who produced the movie. ?That 19 hijackers are going to completely bypass security and crash four commercial airliners in a span of two hours, with no interruption from the military forces, in the most guarded airspace in the United States and the world? That to me is a conspiracy theory.?

It?s also not much of a story line. As a narrative, the official story that the government-echoed by the media-is trying to sell shows an almost embarrassing lack of novelistic flair, whereas the story the conspiracy theorists tell about what happened on Sept. 11 is positively Dan Brownesque in its rich, exciting complexity. Rowe and his collaborator, Dylan Avery, 22, actually started writing Loose Change as a fictional screenplay-?loosely based around us discovering that 9/11 was an inside job,? Rowe says-before they became convinced that the evidence of conspiracy was overwhelming. The Administration is certainly playing its part in the drama with admirable zeal. If we went to war to root out fictional weapons of mass destruction, is staging a fictional terrorist attack such a stretch?

But there?s a big problem with Loose Change and with most other conspiracy theories. The more you think about them, the more you realize how much they depend on circumstantial evidence, facts without analysis or documentation, quotes taken out of context and the scattered testimony of traumatized eyewitnesses. (For what it?s worth, the National Institute of Standards and Technology has published a fact sheet responding to some of the conspiracy theorists? ideas on its website, www.nist.gov. The theories prompt small, reasonable questions that demand answers that are just too large and unreasonable to swallow. Granted, the Pentagon crash site looks odd in photographs. But if the Pentagon was hit by a cruise missile, then what happened to American Airlines Flight 77? Where did all the real, documented people on it go? Assassinated? Relocated? What about eyewitnesses who saw a plane, not a missile? And what are the chances that an operation of such size-it would surely have involved hundreds of military and civilian personnel-could be carried out without a single leak? Without leaving behind a single piece of evidence hard enough to stand up to scrutiny in a court? People, the feds just aren?t that slick. Nobody is.

There are psychological explanations for why conspiracy theories are so seductive. Academics who study them argue that they meet a basic human need: to have the magnitude of any given effect be balanced by the magnitude of the cause behind it. A world in which tiny causes can have huge consequences feels scary and unreliable. Therefore a grand disaster like Sept. 11 needs a grand conspiracy behind it. ?We tend to associate major events-a President or princess dying-with major causes,? says Patrick Leman, a lecturer in psychology at Royal Holloway University of London, who has conducted studies on conspiracy belief. ?If we think big events like a President being assassinated can happen at the hands of a minor individual, that points to the unpredictability and randomness of life and unsettles us.? In that sense, the idea that there is a malevolent controlling force orchestrating global events is, in a perverse way, comforting.

You would have thought the age of conspiracy theories might have declined with the rise of digital media. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy was a private, intimate affair compared with the attack on the World Trade Center, which was witnessed by millions of bystanders and television viewers and documented by hundreds of Zapruders. You would think there was enough footage and enough forensics to get us past the grassy knoll and the magic bullet, to create a consensus reality, a single version of the truth, a single world we can all live in together.

But there is no event so plain and clear that a determined human being can?t find ambiguity in it. And as divisive as they are, conspiracy theories are part of the process by which Americans deal with traumatic public events like Sept. 11. Conspiracy theories form around them like scar tissue. In a curious way, they?re an American form of national mourning. They?ll be with us as long as we fear lone gunmen, and feel the pain of losses like the one we suffered on Sept. 11, and as long as the past, even the immediate past, is ultimately unknowable. That is to say, forever.

JoolsToo · 30/12/2006 16:29

very interesting down the page is a crash test of plane ploughing into a wall and the plane practically vaporises!

However, looking at the pictures close up it would seem to me (hey I'm no expert) that the plane has landed very neatly indeed. The plane clipped a lampost and all it did was shatter a taxi cab window?

It's all very inter-esting!

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.