Women's safety in Europe after Cologne

[DavidTCDaviesMP]

I have been invited onto Mumsnet to discuss the situation for women in Europe following the attacks in Cologne, and the challenge we face in Europe in trying to help millions of mainly young men, who are arriving in Europe from cultures which treat women very differently. I believe this is an issue which needs open discussion by political leaders yet is swept under the carpet. David Davies MP

Lulme this is the problem with people adhering rigidly to any doctrine and its why I don't like or trust corybn one little bit.

Similarly, AMouse wrote that the Somali refugee who murdered the Swedish social worker was over 18 - and no (except me) pulled her up on it, when even the Mail article she linked to acknowledges that in the absence of documentary evidence it is impossible to establish age with any certainty

OF COURSE Its going to be very difficult to prove someones age when they have no birth certificate, of course it is, it goes without saying!

BUT, there are other ways to establish a rough gage arn't there!

No need to pull me up on that thanks I thought it went without saying or having to spell it out, clearly not!

No, there really aren't "rough ways to gauge" unless you (think you) already know the answer. Even medical professionals find this difficult, and especially in the late pubertal/ early adult period, because they are looking for things like pubertal stage and bone growth, and there are very large variations in when that happens.

It isn't in the UK press yet but French and German media are reporting on the prosecutors' investigation into the identify of the Cologne attackers, and it's being claimed that fewer than 1% of the several hundred known attackers were refugees. Most were immigrants from North Africa (Algeria, Morocco).

The highest number of foreign criminals in UK prisons are from Poland. Why no concern about Polish immigrants?

Emily, this ^ is the problem with mass immigration.

You have no control over who you let in.

When you control immigration and say let 10 people in, and ONE turns out to be a bad egg, its not really a problem.

But when you let in 10,000 and 100 are a problem, its starts to become an issue.

when you let 1,00000 in and hundreds of thousands are a problem then you have a crisis and a massive problem.

I have seen the violence with my own eyes, I have had to call out the police myself many times where I live due to fighting and aggression.

This is why I am ultra alert to the problem, and why we must not add to our existing problems. Because as a society we cannot cope with the ones we have.

But this thread is not about Polish Immigrants, its about economic Migrants from Africa.
If you want to talk about problems with mass immigration start your own thread.

Can't see this in the English media but it's being widely reported in the European media, eg:

tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/monde/20160212.OBS4593/agressions-a-cologne-les-auteurs-n-etaient-pas-des-refugies.html

(Translation: "Cologne attacks: the suspects were not refugees")

No, there really aren't "rough ways to gauge" unless you (think you) already know the answer

Yes there are ways to get a rough estimation. Its all the authorities have so its what they do!

misti

Not sure how long you have been on these threads but its kind of already been said many times that the problem men seem to be economic migrants from the countries you have mentioned.

But this thread is not about Polish Immigrants, its about economic Migrants from Africa.

Sure. But in the context of people claiming they are interested in facts, and the attacking Emily for making things up when she was wasn't, then it has a certain relevance.

It's much easier to have a sensible debate if everyone has some respect for facts and evidence, and people don't accuse others of making things up when they are not.

AMouse yes, and I really don't have an issue with discussing problematic attitudes to women when it's based on some sort of factual evidence, and not hysterical press coverage. I'm certainly no apologist for Islam (or for any other religion that oppresses women - which is true of all the abrahamic religions and particularly Catholicism - but that's outside the remit of this thread).

The fact remains that the media narrative about Cologne was about -refugees, and the danger of letting them in.

It's much easier to have a sensible debate if everyone has some respect for facts and evidence, and people don't accuse others of making things up when they are not

Id say the majority of posters on this thread and all the ones like it are having sensible debates thanks.

There is only one poster who has declared she doesnt actually know much about Islam, or Muslims, but continues to try and preach to people about them. Even people who were Muslim, even people who seem to work in fields being discussed here. There is also issues with not reading any information that would challenge her confirmation bias.

Please dont preach about debate when one person doesnt know what they are.

Even to people

I'm certainly no apologist for Islam (or for any other religion that oppresses women - which is true of all the abrahamic religions and particularly Catholicism - but that's outside the remit of this thread)

Yawn.

Its been discussed many a time about the differences between current chrisitan religions and Islam.

Its another thread not this one. Pointless to compare them.

If one of us had come out with the Polish criminals comment, we'd have been accused of xenophobia straight off

Yes I know its astonishing! I thought that too!

Yes there are ways to get a rough estimation. Its all the authorities have so its what they do!

Without a birth certificate or ID, it's almost impossible to confidently determine whether someone is 15 or 18, as this is the period when boys complete puberty, and some will complete it in their mid teens while others will still be physically adolescent until their late teens.

I'll grant you that this is a significant problem for the authorities, when determining which refugees need additional protection, whether they should be in education or are old enough to seek work (if granted asylum) etc.

Why would anyone accuse anyone of xenophobia for quoting a fact? It's a simple fact that Polish, Jamaican and Irish people are the foreigners you are most likely to find in UK jails. This reflects historic immigration into the UK, and probably socio-economic factors as well.

Why would anyone accuse anyone of xenophobia for quoting a fact?

Why indeed? But still it happens endlessly when the facts happen not to suit

Without a birth certificate or ID, it's almost impossible to confidently determine whether someone is 15 or 18

I think we are talking at cross purposes here.

I would not have thought they could pin down an age but only get a rough idea.

I do not need figures and percentages to tell me what's going on. I can see this at roots level, as we all can. The Detective Sgt who I met with told me that the predominant ethnicity for crime in my part of London is Somali. He told me that the whole area had changed and that I should not be walking home from the tube station even in the early evening. Somalia is a lawless country, and Somalis do not recognise or care for authority, think women are stupid if they do not have a male protector and will always strike at the most vulnerable.

But for those who live by figures, here are some for you.

There has been a surge in the number of Muslim prisoners for non-terrorism crimes.

In 2002, 5,502 prisoners in England and Wales said they were Muslim, and by Dec 2014, it had reached 12,225.
The overall prison population has also increased, but that 20% increase in the jail population has been outstripped by the rise in Muslim inmates - up 122%.

The percentage rise in Muslim prisoner numbers has been far greater than the Muslim population increase: Muslim inmates now account for 14.4% of those behind bars, compared with 7.7 % in 2002.

A Ministry of Justice analysis in 2013 suggested that 30% of Muslim prisoners weren't British - last year the top 10 overseas nationalities included inmates from two predominantly Muslim countries, Pakistan and Somalia.

(Unfortunately tabulation is not recognised on MN).

Distribution of prisoners by religion or belief

        30.6.2004	    30.6.2014

Christian 41,438 42,706
Muslim 6,571 12,106
Buddhist 1,133 1,629
Other religious 600 1,565
Sikh 498 732
Hindu 342 447
Jewish 181 319

The fact remains that the media narrative about Cologne was about -refugees, and the danger of letting them in.

Not that I saw. In fact, I saw more hysterical debate-stifling 'narrative' in the media shrieking about hypothetical right-wing backlash and emotive pieces about refugees and the potential danger they might be in as a result than I ever did about the fact that hundreds of women were sexually attacked by immigrants.

On these threads, the majority of debate has acknowledged the need to help genuine refugees.

There has also, despite silly provocation, been balanced and informed conversation about the fact that a misogynist ME/MA culture does not sit easily with our enlightened Western equality for women and gay people.

Acknowledging that hundreds of thousands of economic migrants with these beliefs will be dangerous for many in our European societies (as has finally been reported) is a very different conversation to 'keep refugees out'

To claim so is to dismiss the thousands of thoughtful posts from concerned women and MPs and journalists who are not afraid to have an adult nuanced debate.

Britt, whilst I agree that the safety of women is not being recognised in current debates on migration, making sweeping statements like that about Somalian men or any group doesn't help.

Anecdotal evidence, ok, but one of my best pals is a Somali guy who came to Glasgow as an asylum a few years ago. We worked together and you could not meet a better man. A very kind, funny, creative, open-minded person. He's an art teacher. His father and brothers are very similar. Well, there's one brother I've not met as he's not been able to get across here.

As I said, women's voices are the ones that aren't being listened to here and we should be angry, but I don't want statements like that to muddy an important message about our safety and rights.

The fact remains that the media narrative about Cologne was about -refugees, and the danger of letting them in.

This may be the case in the British media, but not in the German and French media. Germany in particular was reporting very early on that the perpetrators of the NYE attacks were primarily Moroccan and Algerian, and quoting figures showing that crime rates are much higher among newly arrived Moroccans and Algerians - 40% of whom commit a crime during their first year in Germany - than among Syrians, for whom the figure is only 0.5%, and reporting on Moroccan criminal gangs in North Rhine Westphalia. Immigration from Morocco and Algeria rose dramatically in the last couple of months of 2015: in December alone 5300 Algerians and Moroccans entered Germany, more than in the whole of 2014. Germany recorded 2690 applications for asylum from Moroccans in November 2015 and 2896 in December 2015. Moroccans are the only nationality for which asylum applications rose during this period, but very few of them will have their applications approved. Germany has responded by negotiating with Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia to make it easier to deport their nationals. Germany is also debating whether to declare these three countries "safe" so that no asylum claims could be accepted from their nationals.

All the articles below have been posted on these threads:

www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/kriminelle-migranten-taeter-aus-nordafrika-bereiten-polizei-sorgen-a-1071674.html

www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article151035841/Fluechtlingszahl-aus-Algerien-und-Marokko-steigt-stark-an.html

www.lefigaro.fr/international/2016/01/12/01003-20160112ARTFIG00267-cologne-la-police-designe-des-delinquants-maghrebins.php

www.welt.de/regionales/nrw/article151060507/So-geht-es-in-Klein-Marokko-zu.html

www.dw.com/en/germany-plans-to-accelerate-deportation-of-algerians-moroccans/a-18985272

www.dw.com/en/asylum-applications-from-algeria-and-morocco-nationals-on-special-track/a-18988231

Musti - as has already been reported in these threads - age verification is possible via wrist x-rays which demonstrate bone fusion, and the Dutch are now using it. There are also other physical tests.

AgentCooper I am not clear about what you are saying. My information is hardly anecdotal. That was the ethnic breakdown of crime in my Borough, told to me by a Det Sgt who was investigating a crime ..... by a Somali man. Have you not heard of the Somali gangs - most are drug gangs established to feed their own habits and for £.

As regards your friend, he is statistically irrelevant. He may be a Somali who came from a large town where there was a police service, or he just may be a good guy. One of my friends in NJ is ex-Mafia family, and he's a really nice person. So what?

I find it worrying as someone fairly liberal that the Sarah Vine article in the Mail is probably the closest to how I feel of anything I have seen written throughout this whole debate.