Terrible news from Sweden

[JaneJefferson]

This case is so sad. A young care worker has been killed and she was alone in the child refugee centre at night. I can't believe she was left alone to care for 11 refugees after all the recent concerns. There are various news articles about it on the web.

I'm not sure what culture is supposed to be represented by London? Isn't it one of the most multicultural cities in the world?

I think Londonders are all tarred with the same brush when it comes to the knife crime, aren't they? London is perceived as a very dangerous place, especially for teenagers.

And to everyone who has lost someone like this.

Each and every death is awful, Ms Mezher's just as much as each other death.

Pausing - I think you may be right. Although there were several stabbings in my city over Christmas and New Year, the last fatal stabbing of a teenager happened in December.

Have you seen "Scenes from a Teenage Killing"?

No, haven't heard of it: sounds grim?

It's awful but I lose track. I remember that poor lad in Aberdeen late last year because some MNers were connected to the school.

If nobody can be left alone with this boy for safety reasons, what happens when he leaves the compound itself? What about the safety of random strangers?

As others have said, folding money says he's older than 15. Sweden is where grown men make a beeline for if they want to pass for a minor, because it is well known that Sweden does not carry out medical checks to test for age, unlike other countries.

Poor old Sweden. Such a kind-hearted country, but sometimes it seems like it is nice-ing itself to death, if you know what I mean.

What is also awful is using the murder of one young woman by one violent man to make a case against child refugees in general and the other children having to be housed with grown men?

what about them archery? what of them?

if grown men are sneaking in as children, we need to talk about it and do something about it.

I completely agree, AMouse.

This is a very sad case.

People have got in early with the whataboutery though I see.

I was going to say perhaps we ought only to allow women and children to stay. No men. But then, this was a child, perhaps?

It's difficult.

This is just horrible. That poor woman was trying to do something good and helpful and this happens to her.

I don't know what to say. It's awful for her and her loved ones. It's awful for refugees because you can bet there'll be more arson attacks on asylum centres now.

Sweden is where grown men make a beeline for if they want to pass for a minor, because it is well known that Sweden does not carry out medical checks to test for age, unlike other countries

See, this is really troubling.

Don't even try it, Alis.

No one is pretending it's not awful a woman has been killed.

But the thing that stinks about this thread is the "whataboutTHEMery". The attempt to create an identity of Them, They're the same, They behave the same.

From the OP: After all the trouble in Cologne and other cities to leave a young woman on her own in charge of 11 young men, presumably,beggars belief.

So men in Germany assault women, and some of them may have asylum papers (and some not - wasn't at least one suspect American?)

And that becomes, young people's centres in another country should now be specially scared of refugees? Of course they should have adequate staffing, but all the time for the benefit of staff and residents, and that goes for all children and young people's centres, not just those dealing with refugees.

There was another thread recently titled something like "Refugees attack transwomen". When someone pointed out there was no evidence the attackers were refugees, the description was just "of North African appearance", that OP said "same thing, no difference, doesn't matter."

It's textbook.

Create a group identity and start generalising wildly about Them. This is to be a hate group, so gather negative shit: there'll be some in any "group" of humans. So there always is a black person who murdered someone or a Jewish person who fiddled their taxes or a disabled person who wasn't very nice. And if you don't find enough in your own country, why, spread the net, take in a few more countries, you'll get there. And if that's still not enough, attribute other people's shit to Them. And declare all the shit to be the epitome of Them. Declare Them to be different from Us (we don't do those bad things like murder people or fiddle taxes - and when we do, that's individuals, not Us). Ideally drop in a few terribly concerned [sadfaces] about the "genuine cases", oh dear, you feel so sorry for those, how hard life will be now they'll be blamed as being one of Them - not that you've ever met a genuine case of course, oh no.

This is a modus operandi you can watch in operation over decades, over continents, and over all kinds of target groups (though race and religion are popular for hate-identities).

This is what hinders the really important thing of talking realistically about the challenges that really do exist dealing with everything from economic downturn to immigration to women's rights and human rights more generally.

Because so often there's a whataboutTHEMery hovering to seize anything it can find for its hate-fest against a unified Them. (Who, you know, are all a common group, even if They don't know it.)

So I'm afraid I'm not impressed by the crocodile tears on this thread by people trying to exploit the awful death of a young woman for their particular hate-fest.

(BTW I'm not suggesting everyone on this thread is engaged in WhataboutTHEMery. But it's certainly not free of it.)

And it's fucked me off for YEARS that we can't talk about stuff like immigration because of the fear of the WhataboutTHEMers co-opting the discussion.

Pausing - that is an absolutely amazing post. Thank you.

In response to your question, "Scenes from a Teenage Killing" is a documentary that looks at all the British teenagers murdered in the course of one year. It sounds spectacularly grim, but it is very insightful. One part that stands out is a pastor at yet another funeral, asking what is happening in society for this to be such a regular occurence.

when will the powers that be wake up to the fact that these unaccompanied youngsters are almost like feral wild animals, they are a law unto themselves, they know they can't be touched. Lets face it they are bought up completely different from Western/European ways and values, the mere fact that female are considered the lowest of the low (10 paces behind me) says it all.....do you think that just because they are being 'rescued' and taken care of they will change? As these youngsters get older goodness knows what will happen.....and all the time more and more unaccompanied minors will be arriving.

I'm sorry, Pausing are you the thread police?

The problem with these particular discussions on mn and indeed in real life is the constant need, in some corners, to mitigate despicable behaviours in any way possible.

Nobody has said that Western men don't commit crimes, don't commit crimes against women, don't do appalling things when visiting Thailand (for example) but it isn't actually relevant to this discussion about immigrants/refugees. Certainly those issues warrant discussion, a separate one.

But long let whataboutery reign, shutting down conversations at any available opportunity.

Alis - Have you read the comment above yours, which proves Pausing's point exactly?

I hadn't...until now.

Same poster has a thread in AIBU asking why Muslims don't want to live in Muslims countries

I suspect (hope?) that poster is troll.

Unfortunately tossing about accusations of whataboutery in order to silence people also seems to be flavour of the month.

You're right, saying "don't try it" was ill-phrased given that sensitivity. I should have found a different way to say, "please don't try to silence me."

Because I'm not going to sit quietly while people build myths that They need lessons from Our culture to stop Them stabbing people. Too many wrongnesses to even count the ways. One being is that it assigns "stabbing people" as a thing They do, and is different from Us.

Puncturing that balloon is very relevant on this thread.

pausing I was about to disagree with you ...but actually I agree to an extent.
My long term partner is of North African descent (born in the EU) - my children are mixed race...the last thing I want is the far right gaining power - I desperately want to be able to talk about these things -allow people to put their perspectives -so you can answer their fears. Otherwise people like the BNP stand up and get elected.

I mentioned 'tarnishing good honest refugees' which you mentioned several times - I mean that sincerely. If I was a genuine refugee I would be beyond fucked off with the criminal element that has come along too. Because you are right - it will be all refugees who bear the brunt (or all people of NA appearance and I have a vested interest in not wanting that.)

And yes I posted to link to the petition -because I badly want 'immigration' discussed in the main stream - I want what happened on NYE to be discussed in the UK parliament - it needs to be discussed.
At the moment the media is swinging one way - like public opinion - just like it did the other way after images of Aylan Kurdi appeared. I think part of the current reporting is due to the (apparently politically motivated) attempted cover up after NYE. Honestly I don't care as long as it is discussed, openly and honestly.
I do feel sympathy for the victim and her family - especially as it is being used for political reasons.

You make the point about teen knife crime - the majority of the victims are young men - young black men and often gang related (or they used to be a few years ago when I last looked at the figures). You need to acknowledge that and look at the possible reasons before you can try to solve the problem. Talk about stop and search, talk about expectations and role models. Talk about it without fear of being labelled racist.
I was angry many years ago when there was a furore about 'most muggers are young black men' the discussion was closed down -instead of looking to see if that is the case and why it is the case. My DP will say growing up where he did he was 'expected' to be a mugger - people on the bus would clutch their bags to them or move....as he said he might as well be a mugger because people thought he was anyway. That gives you another perspective on it - one which 'we' need to hear. (He also got told he wouldn't be suitable for a job because the customers wouldn't be comfortable with him taking their coats....)

Actually, I think "please don't attempt to wave away my point" is more exactly what I wanted to say in my post above, since we're being careful about language.

A major point is that if open discussion about these events is shut down, people will still think the wrong things, but will have the added belief that things are being covered up. It doesn't stop people having racist views.

unlucky, I was actually thinking of Operation Trident while writing the above. Racism really is the gift that keeps giving, isn't it?

Fair enough Pausing.

Though the sentiment is the same, I would taken that better.

I note your point about the consequences of using the term "whataboutery" as well or at least being careful not to allow it to become an Us and Them argument. Which isn't how I think personally.

Yes, I'm sorry, it was rubbish phrasing.