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Sex Attacks in Cologne and other European Cities Part VIII

999 replies

Cologne2016Petition · 26/01/2016 21:04

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Let the debate continue.....

OP posts:
emilybohemia · 28/01/2016 16:54

People have stated why already Inkanta.

OneWingWonder · 28/01/2016 16:56

emilybohemia

'People have stated why already Inkanta.'

Why don't you 'state' some factual reasons then? Perhaps because there aren't any!

Bluebolt · 28/01/2016 17:17

The video footage in the express, brings it home again that this was not about one man assaulting a woman, but many men enabling the attacks.

LumelaMme · 28/01/2016 17:17

Lumela, why is that better? The conditions in camps are often dreadful. I question the idea of very large camps for thousands of people being a better solution. We had very large camps during Nazi Germany. The refugees are not prisoners, they have rights.
Back around we ago... didn't I say upthread that the camps back in Turkey etc should be improved? Made into decent places to live? If I didn't say it, I'm damn sure someone else did.

We're not talking Nazi death camps here. We're not even talking camps at the level of the camps the Japanese stuck people in during WWII.

There is NO comparison with Nazi camps, so please stop making it. It's pathetic, and it minimises what the Nazis did

Inkanta · 28/01/2016 17:19

Emily - yes can you tell me why they can't apply in France! It's as civilised as the UK.

Why MUST these economic migrants come to the UK?

LongWayRound · 28/01/2016 17:32

Some articles here from the Independent:

www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-calais-jungle-isn-t-a-refugee-camp-it-s-a-camp-full-of-refugees-and-there-s-a-huge-difference-a6821661.html
Quote: "These people are stuck. They can't go back. They can't go forward. So they wait."
I can't help wondering why they can't go back at least to the extent of applying for asylum in France.
There is a more general problem that when people have left their home countries and invested heavily in getting to Europe, it becomes very difficult to admit that they may have made a bad decision based on false information circulating in their home countries. I'm not thinking so much of refugees escaping war and violence, as of economic migrants who cannot return home without at the very least losing face in the eyes of family and neighbours.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/refugee-crisis-what-asylum-seekers-in-the-calais-jungle-hope-for-in-2016-a6797831.html
A couple of the people quoted want to get to the UK to join relatives, for others it isn't clear why they don't want to claim asylum anywhere else.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/what-britain-s-six-party-leaders-think-about-the-refugee-camp-in-calais-a6834201.html

SonyaAtTheSamovar · 28/01/2016 17:56

Agree Bluebolt.

GraceKellysLeftArm · 28/01/2016 18:04

Anyone seen the pic of the "15 year old" who stabbed the poor Swedish SOCIAL WORKER to death? :(

januarybrown1998 · 28/01/2016 18:05

Slightly different subject; just heard the BBC report about the gunman at Disneyland. The BBC said 'a European.'

So they must have reinstated their Head of Reporting Ethnicity After All. Hmm

ItsJustaUsername · 28/01/2016 18:06

That Natalie Bennet sounds thick as mince. According to her if we take some of the migrants from Calais that will 'end the crisis in Calais' Confused

Anyway, I also got a response from the home office. Same as pp, talks a lot about police expertise/powers/use of public disorder acts/support for victims. Also weirdly boasts about how many sex offenders are in prison (11,400) and how that figure is increasing. Well yes that reassures me Hmm.

Going back to Cologne, It does seem that train stations in particular are where a lot of migrants congregate, well those looking to thieve etc which begs the question why the hell were the police not prepared for trouble? I'm fairly confident a large crowd of drunk aggressive men would be dispersed pretty quickly in the UK. Even after it became apparent what was going on the German police did nothing and allowed the attacks to continue for several hours. And now we have Swedish police running away from a refuge centre. These criminals must be laughing at the utter incompetence and now probably feel like they're untouchable.

I don't know how many people were 'partying' outside the cathedral but it looks like maybe 2000 or so. For comparison, the Edinburgh hogmany street party attracted 240,000 this year. There was 1 reported rape which occurred after the party in another part of the city centre.

ItsJustaUsername · 28/01/2016 18:11

Sorry it was 75,000 this year but has been much higher in the past.

emilybohemia · 28/01/2016 18:15

Inkanta, even if they apply in France they can wait months for an appointment and up to a year for papers. They are not automatically given access to accomodation while they wait. Stating hey can easily applay for asylum in rance is false. Refugees there also experience racism and abuse. There isalso the fact some can speak English or have relatives in England.

Legal means of reaching the UK for asylum have long been difficult to access. Refugees from the Bosnian war sometimes reached asylum in the UK by being smuggled out.

The Nazi death camps did not appear overnight. They were preceded by a long campaign which involved the dehumanisation of people for the 'safety' of other people.

However, we are already seeing that some countries are advocating for the removal of valuables from refugees. This has been approved in Denmark.

Refugees have frozen to death and drowned.

Bulgarian police beat refugees and rob them, as do locals that abduct them and rob them. Bulgaria does not allow volunteers or media near, who knows what else they have to hide. Bulgaria advises Greece to push back refugees into the sea.

Hungary criminalises people that want to help refugees, imprisons them for days and beats them.

Refugees are beaten by French police and tear gassed. Tear gas can permanently blind and is banned in warfare. Children are in the camp. Measles are in the camp. Neo Nazis beat a Syrian man at the camp so badly he was hospitalised.

Refugees and Muslims experience the same skepticism and fear that they pose a threat, that Jews once did.

Fears on some of these threads echo those of the past that feared a global conspiracy was a work. There were also fears then that Jews would leech resources from the more deserving.

Also, do remember that many EU governments are disregarding he Geneva Convention and human rights. If they will disregard these conventions for 'those' people, they will do the same for you in time.

LumelaMme · 28/01/2016 18:33

So, emily, you have made it crystal clear that the journey across the Med and up through Europe is very dangerous for refugees.

SO WHY ENCOURAGE ANY MORE TO COME THAT WAY?

The Nazi death camps did not appear overnight. They were preceded by a long campaign which involved the dehumanisation of people for the 'safety' of other people.
No shittin, Sherlock, as my DC would say. That's exactly why a lot of people on these threads are keen to keep this isue an open debate, out of the hands of the far Right. That's right, all those posters you accused of being neo-Nazis.

However, we are already seeing that some countries are advocating for the removal of valuables from refugees. This has been approved in Denmark.
To get basic benefits in Denmark you have to be pretty skint:
No assistance is granted if the applicant or his/her spouse own sufficient property to cover their financial needs, including real property and movable assets. Any amount up to DKK 10,000 (€ 1,260), for a married couple up to DKK 20,000 (€ 2,521), shall not be taken into account. Moreover, a certain amount of income from work is disregarded. The municipal authorities may decide to disregard other income or assets on a case-by-case basis.
It's here if you want to check
Things like unemployment benefit works like an insurance: you have to have worked and contributed.
So the Danish authorities seem to be treating migrants just how they would treat a Dane who hit 18, buggered off to America and then came back with 10k in the bank at 25.

LongWayRound · 28/01/2016 18:38

Re Denmark:
"The bill’s proponents said the government was merely asking refugees to abide by the same requirements that Danish citizens face, namely that they use their own resources before being eligible for welfare benefits. They also pointed to precedents in Europe. Asylum seekers in Switzerland, for example, must declare their assets upon arrival and hand over those exceeding 1,000 Swiss francs, about $981, Reuters has reported, citing the Swiss broadcaster SRF."
"Denmark’s prime minister has warned that the 1951 United Nations treaty governing the rights of refugees might need updating."

Re children in the camp at Calais:
"Up to 2,000 refugees living at the Jungle camp in Calais are to be evicted this week ahead of large sections of the site being bulldozed, aid workers in the area have claimed. More than 300 women and 60 children are understood to be among those facing eviction from the site amid claims the French government wants to dismantle up to a third of the camp."
So the woman and children make up less than 20% of those concerned. It shouldn't be too difficult to take them out of the camp and give them safer housing...?

AMouseLivedinaWindMill · 28/01/2016 18:52

Stating hey can easily applay for asylum in rance is false

No its not, thousands apply for asylum there are not hundreds of camps all over France.

Refugees are beaten by French police and tear gassed

Strange switching from economic migrants to refugees. We saw the video posted by Hugo on the other thread, they were tear gassed when cutting through fences and storming a ferry.

After being incentivized to riot by the far left.

The far left is whipping them up, giving them false hope and then when the migrants cause trouble, the far right comes along and takes a pop at them.

They were preceded by a long campaign which involved the dehumanisation of people for the 'safety' of other people

One could argue thats your aim Emily on this thread, with all the epithets you have thrown out over the course of these threads, to people who themselves have helped physically in Calais or through their careers, work, and people who have been donating to the camps and raising funds.

However, we are already seeing that some countries are advocating for the removal of valuables from refugees. This has been approved in Denmark

I can imagine the far left group in calais - no borders, sharing lots of your views Emily, and the way you twist things, the basic fact is, Denmark wants to stem the flow of migrants to the country they cant cope with any more. This is one way to try and achieve that.

Inkanta · 28/01/2016 19:13

'Inkanta, even if they apply in France they can wait months for an appointment and up to a year for papers. They are not automatically given access to accomodation while they wait. Stating hey can easily applay for asylum in rance is false. Refugees there also experience racism and abuse. There isalso the fact some can speak English or have relatives in England.'

Emily - you said they are 'rotting' in the Calais camps - is that right? I would have thought then that the priority would be warmth and safety, which is provided in the containers, where they are provided with accommodation, food, showers, and phone chargers. The men have to register though and apply for asylum in France but apparently they WON'T do that. They are hell bent on coming to the UK.

emilybohemia · 28/01/2016 20:46

Lumela, I compared one poster to a neo Nazi on another thread.

Amouse, tear gas is regularly thrown into the camps, where children are and can have their sight damaged by it.

I haven't seen anyone rioting nor being encouraged to riot.

'One could argue thats your aim Emily on this thread, with all the epithets you have thrown out over the course of these threads, to people who themselves have helped physically in Calais or through their careers, work, and people who have been donating to the camps and raising funds'.

I've seen one poster on this thread that has helped people at Calais. Where have I dehumanised them?

emilybohemia · 28/01/2016 20:49

Inkanta, containers have not been provided for all the refugees there. I haven't seen anything about them being provided with food either.

Inkanta · 28/01/2016 21:07

Emily - the containers are there for all those who will register for asylum, and most of them are standing empty. The men won't register. The men won't register because they prefer to go to the UK.

If I was freezing and rotting I would register.

LumelaMme · 28/01/2016 21:18

Oh, okay, emily. Excuse my not remembering.

But you did imply that anyone disagreeing with you was a racist, though. And then got shirty (and very rude) when I kept on chasing you about it.

D'you fancy dealing with anything else I said in my post? Why should countries respond in a way that will encourage more people to make a dangerous journey? That the Danes are only doing to asylum seekers what they do to their own?

BillSykesDog · 28/01/2016 21:27

Emily. As I posted on another thread your figures regarding timescales for asylum applications in France are false. You never back them up with a source so I assume you know this.

www.asylumineurope.org/reports/country/France/asylum-procedure/procedures/registration-asylum-application

Asylum seekers from the point of making themselves known to the authorities are given an appointment to receive asylum papers. This must take place within 3 days, which a lot of places stick to. Some areas have delays, but even those with the longest delays, Paris and St Denis, have delays of only a month and two months respectively.

They have 21 days to hand back their papers and after that there the deadline for registering them for a temporary residence permit as an asylum seeker is 3 days, or ten in exceptional circumstances. Many areas meet this, those with the longest delays are Paris and St Denis, again at 1 and 2 months. So even in the area with the longest delays the longest administrative delay from initial contact to temporary permit is 4 months. So all this stuff about waiting a year just to get the initial papers is nonsense. This info was current in November.

As I have also said elsewhere, the French authorities are keen to encourage people in the camps to apply in France and are making great efforts to get them to do so, so delays are minimal. This is something even the far left supporters groups in Calais admit; because they're whinging on about how unfair it is that they're encouraged to do so but when they do they're offered shared accommodation rather than their own house and it's not in the places they want to live, and they should be given a house each in Paris on on the Ile de France and nothing else is good enough.

emilybohemia · 28/01/2016 21:53

I think the way it works is different in reality Billy.

OneWingWonder · 28/01/2016 22:03

emilybohemia

'I think the way it works is different in reality Billy.'

Because you have a unique access to reality that everyone else lacks. That's one possibility.

The other possibility, however ...

BillSykesDog · 28/01/2016 22:21

Emily, the organisation I linked to, AIDA, is run by the European Council for Refugees and Exiles which provides up to date, accurate information for asylum seekers based on expert advice, official figures, fact finding missions and testimony from asylum seekers themselves. It's a resource for asylum seekers and is pro-asylum seeker, intending to facilitate their applications.

It's a far more reliable source than some random on a forum who seems to think Facebook memes and YouTube videos are reliable sources of information.

SonyaAtTheSamovar · 28/01/2016 23:21

Labour MP Jess Phillips on Question Time tonight equates Cologne (and the rest?) To events on Broad Street, Birmingham.