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Sex Attacks in Cologne and other European Cities Part VIII

999 replies

Cologne2016Petition · 26/01/2016 21:04

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Let the debate continue.....

OP posts:
januarybrown1998 · 28/01/2016 10:43

four thank you. Shocking signal precludes further contributions but I look forward to catching up later.

LumelaMme · 28/01/2016 11:08

Thanks, Despicable and Billy: I missed that. Is that for all Europe, though, or just Calais? It looks as if it's for all Europe, so it might not apply to Calais.

Sorry to nitpick, but good stats support arguments better than do weak ones.

sportinguista · 28/01/2016 11:20

This might give a bit more info but it seems it is hard proving the figures for sure anyway:

migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/commentary/calais-and-clandestine-migration-uk-concerns-and-context

DespicableBee · 28/01/2016 11:20

www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/reuters/article-3420691/Cologne-attacks-Germany-unprepared-migration-challenge.html

This is interesting, gives a breakdown of crime by different groups of migrants
Eg " only 0.5 percent of Syrian migrants in the city were caught committing crimes within a year.
By contrast, among migrants from North Africa, as many as 40 percent were caught committing crimes within a year, the report says."

DespicableBee · 28/01/2016 11:23

The article also mentions how hardly any of the migrants from north Africa were genuine refugees fleeing war

"Virtually none of the North Africans arriving in Germany have proven to be genuine refugees: last year Germany granted some form of protection to just 0.19 percent of Tunisian migrants, 3.74 percent of Moroccans and 1.6 percent of Algerians."

MariscallRoad · 28/01/2016 11:36

282

MrWriter · 28/01/2016 11:47

Hefzi that is a fantastic post and I agree whole heartedly.

MariscallRoad · 28/01/2016 12:20

BillSykesDog and Lumela This is actually EU Foreign affairs Commissioner Timmermann speaking himself on the TV and see him here. He is the Netherlands’ European commissioner and vice president of the EU

nos.nl/video/2082787-timmermans-60-procent-van-asielzoeker-is-economische-vluchteling.html

Puzzledandpissedoff · 28/01/2016 12:26

An absolutely stunning post, Hefzi - as usual you write perfect sense

MariscallRoad · 28/01/2016 12:31

Wikipedia says 'The Migration Observatory at the University of Oxford is a project providing analysis of immigration and migration issues affecting the UK.'
www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/
On the first page there are many interesting topics and stats you can choose to look into.

Inkanta · 28/01/2016 13:04

'Cologne is about going backwards before we've finished going forwards, a depressing reminder that we can never say "Equality for women? Done." Who was it who warned 'progress is not inevitable'?'

Paleblue - yes I think there might be some truth in that.

That's what got my hackles up in the first place when I heard about the Cologne attacks. I thought - bloody hell, women's rights have made so much progress (right from the suffragette times) - we can't allow such a backwards step to happen again.

If it's economic migrants from misogynistic cultures bringing us down then it needs tackling head on with a no-nonsense plain speaking attitude and no more treading on eggshells. There can be no going back now or fear to seek and speak truths about the situation to protect 'fragile sensibilities'. What's going on? Who are these men? Who are these men in Calais and why are they hell bent on getting into the UK? Do we say NO! - get lost? What do we do?

Bryt · 28/01/2016 13:26

January Spot on here. "There is an inherent contradiction between espousing liberalism and human rights whilst simultaneously demanding that an enlightened democracy accommodate rigid thinking and archaic attitudes, especially towards women and homosexuals"

DespicableBee · 28/01/2016 14:02

There have been over 920 criminal complaints made about cologne
Only two people charged so far.....

DespicableBee · 28/01/2016 14:04

What angers me most about all this, is the fact I just know none of the men involved in the sexual assults will be charged let alone receive long jail sentences

LongWayRound · 28/01/2016 14:29

Hefzi That is an excellent post.
The only people getting rich from Calais are the organised criminals, who are raking it in.
I live in Morocco. Almost as soon as Germany relaxed border controls for Syrians, I began hearing stories about how Moroccans were travelling to Turkey (flights aren't too expensive and there is no visa requirement), then crossing to Greece and joining the genuine refugees. I now think that people smugglers here had begun targeting unemployed young men with limited prospects, and holding out promises of a bright new future in Germany. Two young men from a family which I know very well left Casablanca for Turkey at the beginning of December and crossed to Greece. I'd always thought that you would have to be absolutely desperate to risk the sea crossing: but hearing these two lads' stories, I realised that they saw it as an adventure and had little idea of the numbers who die making the crossing. By the end of the first week they had got as far as a camp on the border with Macedonia, but by this time Macedonia had restricted transit to refugees from Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan. They were expelled from the camp and taken to Athens.
By now they had run through the very small sum of money they had brought with them, and had begun begging family members already living in Europe to send them more. But they wouldn't consider the possibility of coming back to Morocco. They found another route and managed to get as far as Hungary. The last I heard is that the younger one has been placed in an orphanage (he gave his age as 16, but is actually 19) and the older one (age 21) is either in prison or a holding centre of some kind. What will happen next, I have no idea. Germany is working out an agreement with Morocco on repatriation of illegal migrants but I don't know how this will affect Moroccans who are blocked somewhere along the refugee trail.
These boys were naive and very badly informed. The thought of what, and who, they will have been exposed to in the camps frightens me. They have no future in Europe and if they return to Morocco they will almost certainly consider themselves humiliated. I would like to think that the people smugglers responsible for young men like these setting out on a pointless trek to Europe will be found and punished, but it seems unlikely.

LongWayRound · 28/01/2016 14:33

MariscallRoad and palebluedotty - the course and book you mentioned respectively look very interesting. I shall look up both of them.

emilybohemia · 28/01/2016 15:29

Hefzi, I'm not sure what your 'expertise' is, however, whilst many in Calais may not have fled a war zone, many have fled persecution by tyrannical regimes, which gives them a right to safety under the Geneva Convention. There is nothing disingenuous in saying most people in Calais are not simply seeking a better life, but are fleeing death, torture and unimaginable horror. To say they simply seek a better life and compare your own desire, as a fairly affluent woman of the West, to their position, is ridiculous and quite sickening.

'I personally would like to move to Canada or Australia for a better life, not to mention significantly higher salaries, both of whom have points system: but despite the fact I have two PhDs, professional qualifications, and am multi-lingual, my age (early 40s) and profession means that I cannot just move - like many specialised and educated individuals who want to come to the UK, I could only do so if an employer could first prove they couldn't recruit within their national borders for their post, and then sponsored my visa. That's the way the world works, I'm afraid - there are national borders, and countries restrict immigration to people they need, and people in need of help'.

Whilst there is a points system, there is also a system for asylum for people fleeing unsafe places. These are the people in need of help and the UK is currently ignoring their obligations.

'The doctors and nurses from West Africa, trying to come over here for a better life for them and their kids - of course I understand it: but is is moral and just we take the skilled staff those countries desperately need?'

If they are leaving because of torture and persecution, it is moral to offer them a home. Whilst they may have 'skills', what use are they when persecution means they can't use them anyway.

Your Ugandan friend isn't a great example unless she has seen family members killed or tortured.

'The bottom line is- it sucks, but the world isn't fair, or just'. This is no justification for not helping people in Calais. There are international laws in place which state that desperate people can and shoud be helping. Flouting these laws is appalling.

'you seem very passionate and idealistic'

I don't think being passionate or idealistic is much to do with it. Wanting the suffering to be protected rather than shunned and scapegoated is not a pie in the sky ideal for me. The flouting of and relinquishment of these ideals sets a very dangerous precedent and a strong indication of how Cameron and his ilk will treat everone if a terrible calamity oremergency situation hits the UK.

'perhaps you could focus your passion towards seeking just solutions to the inequalities that lead people to risk everything to leave their homelands in search of a "better life"?'

That's an interesting sentiment, but I can't solve wars or punish despotic regimes. I can call for m countr to do it's bit though, and for Europe to do more. The root causes are being exacerbated by countries like the UK. The refusal of the UK to even process people in Calais so we can see how credible their claims are, does nothing to service to anyone.

I think Calais IS a pressing concern. People there are being tear gassed and beaten by French police. I find that very worrying. They are also attacked by Neo Nazis. The current solution seems to be to destroy any community built there and to force people to stay in detenion facilities where they will be forced to apply for asylum in France.

LumelaMme · 28/01/2016 15:36

Wanting the suffering to be protected rather than shunned and scapegoated is not a pie in the sky ideal for me.

Nor for me, emily, however much you might like to to imply that everyone else on this thread is a heartless bastard. I just think it's better for them to be cared for nearer to the homes to which they will eventually want or need to return, than for the wealthier or tougher of them to risk dangerous sea crossings.

emilybohemia · 28/01/2016 15:54

Lumela, why is that better? The conditions in camps are often dreadful. I question the idea of very large camps for thousands of people being a better solution. We had very large camps during Nazi Germany. The refugees are not prisoners, they have rights.

OneWingWonder · 28/01/2016 16:05

emilybohemia

'We had very large camps during Nazi Germany. The refugees are not prisoners, they have rights.'

Jesus Christ, everything is the same as the Holocaust as far as you're concerned, isn't it? Did someone once tell you that mentioning the Holocaust means you automatically win the argument? They must have done, because I can't imagine why else someone would argue in such an illogical manner.

'The refugees are not prisoners, they have rights.'

Exactly. Unlike the Nazi death camps, the refugees can leave at any time. They just don't have the right to force themselves on Britain.

AMouseLivedinaWindMill · 28/01/2016 16:15

I think Calais IS a pressing concern. People there are being tear gassed and beaten by French police. I find that very worrying. They are also attacked by Neo Nazis. The current solution seems to be to destroy any community built there and to force people to stay in detenion facilities where they will be forced to apply for asylum in France

Confused

I suggest the far left are rooted out, the police in Calais have asked for immediate help from brit police on this.

stop the organised riots for a start.

Destroy any community? Shock

I thought you said they were living in awful conditions? I do know there is a link somewhere to the far left "no border" contingent to encourage the migrants to desist being moved into dry, warm and sanitized containers!
Sounds like you support this emily?

Hardly detention facilities merely UN approved facilities with a check on those people who come and go?

Forced to apply for assylum in France?

How many times have you tried to tell us, they cant for some reason apply in France?

Inkanta · 28/01/2016 16:52

'How many times have you tried to tell us, they cant for some reason apply in France?'

Emily - why can't they apply to France??

DespicableBee · 28/01/2016 16:53

Of course the can apply for assylum in France, its a safe country

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