Sex Attacks in Cologne and other European Cities Part VIII

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Let the debate continue.....

[LumelaMme]

If I was xenophobic, I'd have to get rid of DH!
I was that xenophobic, I'd have to get rid of some of my genes. That would be interesting.

[sportinguista]

Stats more recent on Japan muslims:

The most serious work on this question has been done by Japanese scholars such as Hiroshi Kojima of the National Institute of Population and Social Security Research and Keiko Sakurai of Waseda University. Their estimates suggest a Muslim population of around 70,000, of which perhaps 90% are resident foreigners and about 10% native Japanese.

Of the foreign majority, the largest national groups, in order of population size, are Indonesians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, and Iranians. Of the ethnically Japanese Muslims, the majority are thought to be Japanese women who have married foreign Muslim men, but there are also a small number of intellectuals, including university professors, who have converted. It should also be noted that the Muslim population of Japan probably reached 10,000 only in the late 1980s, and then expanded in the 1990s as more foreign workers arrived in the country.

[LumelaMme]

It's between 1 and 2. I think the plan is that he will start the thread, so his posts will come up in colour. MN have said they will make it a sticky - at least, they said they would if it's in In The News, but I suggested that we start it in Chat (for the traffic) and asked if they could sticky it in Active. Haven't heard back yet - possibly because it's the weekend, but maybe MN and David D are liaising directly with each other.

I think we need a new thread to keep this going and make sure the web chat gets some publicity before tomorrow.

[sportinguista]

I don't think anyone has said they don't like foreigners etc per se. It's more that they disagree with some cultural norms practised in some countries/cultures. It is not xenophobic to disagree with some practices. Would you say people from those cultures in which it is practice for women and girls to cover up and not participate in certain activities are being xenophobic for not agreeing with our cultural norms? No they are entitled to that 'opinion', because it is just that, their opinion on a particular subject. The issue is when two diametrically opposed cultural values are asked to co-exist in close proximity, then those holding differing opinions may find themselves having to work out how to do this. There was a recent article on a case in Italy where a man brought a case against his wife for being a bad housewife. Now I don't agree with that, but neither do I think it is representative of all Italians (even though the country does have a certain reputation for this). If this was a cultural norm in Italy I would say I disagreed with it and would not want it to be imported into the UK. If I was xenophobic, I'd have to get rid of DH!

[vladimirsoftless]

And is someone willing to star a new thread? Is a new thread need?

[carlajean]

Can I just ask about the webchat with David TC Davies tomorrow?
Is it between 1 and 2?
Is someone going to start a new thread purely for this, and liase with Mr Davies?
I'm looking forward to it, but am extremely disappointed with MN HQ's attitude towards it - and their failure to respond to questions about why they have withdrawn from running a webchat. (Of course it's obvious why not, but it would be good to have an aknowledgement)

[vladimirsoftless]

"I know I am not the only one who has said, or at the very least implied, that sexual assaults are carried out by men of all clolours, religions (and none) and classes. It's not 'just an islamic thing' - you'd have to be a total loon to think that. "

I agree with you Jan.


I'd like to add that cultures that are inherently conservative and patriarchal, where women have fewer rights and are openly controlled by men facilitate the powerlessness of women and therefore facilitate rape culture. Nobody can deny the fact that the countries and cultures where current migrants are coming from are conservative, patriarchal and treat women systematically as second class citizens. Not unlike the way black Africans were treated by white racists in South Africa. apartheid = separating based on some arbitrary characteristic. In the case of Islamist countries and cultural practices women are separated as part of the religious, political and social structures.

I hope that European societies are prepared to make clear and strong cases against misogyny and teach migrants from these countries our laws and how not to be misogynists.

[LumelaMme]

Japan may not be anti-Muslim, but it is not entirely open to 'foreigners':
See this article about Koreans
And this course outline from Colombia Uni in the US

That's possibly why the bullshit on Muslims in Japan has gained traction.

As for nobody challenging xenophobic posts, I'm pretty sure that at one point I said that I really didn't like the way in which the tone of the thread had shifted from discussion to attack. These threads have focussed on discussion.

[vladimirsoftless]

There is legal precedent that it is illegal to critics the EU

www.theeuroprobe.org/2013-002-it-is-now-against-the-european-law-to-criticise-the-eu/

[vladimirsoftless]

kess just to say that i very much agree with your previous points just wanted to comment on the xenophobia and tinfoil comments.

Another comment about xenophobia, islamophobia etc. I have no problem with individuals from whatever culture, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation... who integrate into European society and don't act in a way that undermines our liberal and emancipated ways of life. Politicised communities seeking to change our way of life on a fundamental level are a threat, however. It's a question of numbers and power, isn't it?

I try treating everyone with respect regardless of their cultural 'identity' but if groups of people are looking down their nose at me because I am Western and dare wearing a t-shirt in summer or treat women as second class citizens I get p**ed off and want to challenge it. I want my children to be able to be gay if that's what happens and live without the threat of violence from bigoted religious people. I want women to be able to work, be healthy, hold their heads high and decent men not pushed into the role of provider and protector. I want music festivals to exist in 50 years where men, women and children can dress as they wish, chill with music they love and be a little crazy without being shut down because such festival offend religious sensitivities and in the name of community cohesion. I am tired as was up half the night so probably not making much sense .

[Moreshabbythanchic]

Maybe Twisted not everyone in the majority can be wrong speaks more volumes to me.

[TwistedReach]

Apparently Britt's 'facts' about Japan are nonsense.
www.snopes.com/muslims-in-japan/
Xenophobic comments have been on all of the threads. And the lack of challenging of them (apart from from Emily, Widow and me) speaks volumes.

[LumelaMme]

Anyway, the way the thread has been developing, with conspiracy theories, the new world order, general anti EU stuff, apologise for white supremacist terrorism, and the ongoing repetition that rape culture is just an islamic thing shows that it's never been about the women in Cologne. But just bog standard xenophobia.

Yes, that's right, Widow, we're all xenophobic conspiracy theorists and these threads have NEVER been about Cologne.

I'm not the only one to have elaborated on the cock-up theory and stated it's the one I go with rather than any conspiracy theory (which is not the same thing as saying our governments never try to deceive us, but that's by the by).

I fail to see where I've acted as an apologist for white supremacist terrorism. I'm generally not a fan of any sort of terrorism, oddly enough, past or present.

I'm on the fence about the EU and I really cannot see what's so bad about people choosing to oppose it and arguing for Brexit: it's a free country - isn't it? Is spouting 'general anti-EU stuff' such a crime?

I know I am not the only one who has said, or at the very least implied, that sexual assaults are carried out by men of all clolours, religions (and none) and classes. It's not 'just an islamic thing' - you'd have to be a total loon to think that. I'm also not the only one to have said that the mass attacks on Cologne are something new in Europe, and something we don't want to see in the UK (or anywhere). Is it really 'xenophobic' to want my and anyone else's daughters to be able to go outside, alone, dressed as they like, and not be groped or raped? It's not, is it? So is it xenophobic to want them not to be 'prey' in a mass assault? To not want cultural memes in which that sort of behaviour is accepted to become established in the UK or anywhere in Europe - because I think we have established that it is a cultural meme in at least some parts of the Muslim world (which is, before you jump on me, very varied and not all the same everywhere). Is that xenophobic? Or just sensible?

I really value British and European culture. It's not perfect - there's too much inequality and there is too much sexual violence and so on - but we have much better lives than many other people do. I want that culture improved upon, not damaged and destroyed. If that makes me a xenophobe, then call me one, tell me so.

And you will have proven yourself impervious to reason.

[januarybrown1998]

reminds me of Animal Farm

Absolutely.

And this thread has has Orwellian overtones from the start. Those who are terrified of free speech, of the idea of equality and liberty for everyone, not just those deemed 'worthy victims' by the thought police, have attempted to derail, shut down throw around inventive, personal insults and ungrounded hysterical accusations in order to obscure the ideas discussed.


for all you intelligent, tolerant, patient, open-minded brave people who are continuing this instructive debate.

I am looking forward very much to hearing from DD tomorrow lunchtime.

[sportinguista]

It is quite scary the power that multinationals could wield. In effect they could change policy and we'd have very little way to fight it. It is coming in already in small un-noticed ways too...

[MariscallRoad]

424

[vladimirsoftless]

From what I understand about the TTIP global businesses will have so much power in society that democracy as we are used to in Europe will be seriously undermined. If you look at the BBC link above, companies will be able to take governments to court in a new and more powerful way. transnational conglomerates already hold immense political lobbying power and will effectively govern people's lives in Europe and the US because of TTiP. I am unable to clearly see through all the mess we find ourselves in but judging by the 'attitudes' of the EU commission they do seek centralised power. At the same time the UK is handing over power to local authorities. This weakens the unity of the UK as a nation state as disparate communities and councils will rule in their little corners without real power to affect what happens on a European level. Decentralising political power in the UK makes the EU stronger. The EU commission reminds me of the Orwell story 'animal farm'.

[clam]

Emily: "I've been absent because it's getting boring"

Yay!!

[sportinguista]

vladimir I was pointed towards the TTIP by a friend last year and it makes for interesting reading. It will affect us all in ways we cannot even start to imagine and would not necessarily want.

I think Cologne has opened a broader debate and has opened up the way for speaking about issues which should be aired: for example the Muslim women's network raising the issue of how difficult it is for women in their communities to be selected as councillors due to a system imported from Pakistan. This is right and should be debated even though it covers some uncomfortable issues.

I'm not anti-foreigner but one should make an effort to meet in the middle when in a different country. I don't rant about things being different in my DH home country and expect them to change things for me.

[vladimirsoftless]

I don't agree kess.

The threads have moved past 'taharrush gamea' and include a broader debate on the impact of cultural & religious misogyny on European women as well as other types of gender-based violence within the migrant context. The way you have used the term xenophobe reiterates the liberal myth that xenophobia is bad/wrong/forbidden. I would say that xenophobia is an overused terms, as is 'Islamophobia' and is used to close down debate.

"A phobia is a type of anxiety disorder, usually defined as a persistent fear of an object or situation the affected person will go to great lengths to avoid, typically disproportional to the actual danger posed."

A phobia is a 'disorder' and the fear is 'disproportional'. Arguably, people who worry about the potential islamification of Europe and gender-based violence in a mass migrant context are being reasonable and pragmatic. Labelling people who don't want more 'foreignness' (I say this as a foreigner!) have every right to feel this and say it out loud and to critics cultural practices, which they feel reduces their quality of life.

Regarding nutty conspiracy theorists, are you saying that our politicians and the media are entirely open with the public? Why do you think British, swedish and german mainstream media are presenting an inaccurate and minimised picture of migrant violence?

I posted about the TTIP because it is a massive far reaching trade agreement and is related to the topic of the EU. Do you know anything about trade agreements and the impact they can have on local populations? The TTIP is being negotiated behind closed doors. You don't need to be a conspiracy nut to wonder why it is behind closed doors and worry about negative outcomes for European citizens.

[sportinguista]

I know 2016 we have muslim friends who have daughters too (one of them is training to be a police officer) a minority making life difficult for their daughters would not be what they want either. Most people round here just want to get on with their lives, but some are clearly bent on having their own way without regard even for their friends/neighbours/community.

It may take decades to change certain mindsets though...

[sportinguista]

Perhaps emily's beef should be with the Japanese government then and she should write to them regarding it. Britt was just stating fact. This is how the Japanese see it, I doubt Britt had a hand in the policy making, or any of us on this forum. If you think it's wrong challenge it through the correct channels...

[2016IsANewYearforMe]

Thanks Kesstrel.

I don't go for the conspiracy theories either. I can see from my own life that Muslims can be good friends and neighbours. Obviously, there has been a Muslim minority in the UK for a long time without anything like Cologne happening. There are over a billion Muslims in the world. It spans many cultures and each person is still an individual.

What I do find alarming is governments in Western Europe's inability to deal with the actual situation in front of them rather than the one they would prefer. They need to quit responding to the narrative in their collective fantasy and deal with the facts on the ground in a fair and consistent manner.

I am 100% sure that my Muslim neighbours a few doors down feel the exact same way about their beautiful three daughters, as I do about mine. They are loving and educating them to have fulfilling self determined lives. Letting Europe turn into some sort of distopian, wild west wouldn't suit them either.

[sportinguista]

vladimir I think you are right. My DH came here around 20 years ago from another European country and he did have to be here around 6 months and then he had to formally apply to be considered habitually resident which then meant he could apply for unemployment benefit, health care etc. Until then he was selling big issue (complicated situation as he'd only come for a holiday and ended up staying due to birth of DSS). I think it must have changed but it certainly was like that back then.

I think it is becoming accepted now that what happened in Cologne and other cities was real and has opened up for debate certain attitudes held in certain communities. Like I've said before I live in a majority Muslim community (I am not muslim!) and while we all do rub along ok for the most part it there are some points that we differ on. For example I am greeted with incredulity when I say I work by some of the ladies. Also we have to accept that DS is not invited to very many birthday parties (just 2 per year, from non muslim children) and that his invites to others will not be accepted (because apparently you can catch white and aethiest!).

Whilst I accept there are differences in ways of doing things, we have to work out how far things need to meet in the middle. I don't think multiculturalism has failed as a whole because there are other cultures and religions who have slotted into our countries/Europe without too many issues and it is unfair to view it as a failure due to just one group being harder to integrate.