Sex Attacks in Cologne and other European Cities Part VIII

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Let the debate continue.....

woman

Not every girl abused was from troubled back ground though!!

Some were from stable family lives with parents very much worried about them!

TBH I think behind the scenes Mumsnet's view on these things will chime far more with the Guardian's than the people on this thread. And that though they will tolerate discussion they won't facilitate campaigning.

without a doubt! Doesnt someones husband work for them?

There weren't all from troubled backgrounds. There are lots of accounts of father's going to rescue their daughters from houses where they were being abused and being arrested, mothers handing over evidence to the police and being ignore, parents begging for help and being sent away. Threats of violence against parents and siblings were one of the means of control. Lots of the families were working families. In fact the victim I know had a professional SF.

Deputy Editor of the Guardian then Newsnight editor. So yeah, basically Labour

Marketing Director is ex Labour.

Not every girl abused was from troubled back ground though!!

I agree with you Bill, not all children where from troubled backgrounds I think it's another form of minimising, as you say there where many instances in the Rotherham report of Parents informing police and being threatened etc, also it is only Rotherham that has had a full investigation, the many other similar incidents hasn't had the full investigations that Rotherham has had.

Sorry to derail, I thought this article about Germany's new deportation laws in response to Cologne was interesting.

Justanotherlurker: two fathers were themselves arrested after trying to get their daughters back -mentioned in official Jay report.

I'd have thought the Sikh and Hindu girls came from very good families.

I'm sorry to hear of the poster who'd had trouble with Eastern European men in her street. I must admit my first hand experience is only of families and professionals.

Perhaps the problem lies (with all cultures) in a "too high" ratio of men. God, I sound rabid with that statement!

But on the subject of women's rights - sex-trafficking is a disgusting crime - generally not perpetuated by British men (although they will be customers). It's depressing.

I hate to say it, but I'm glad I'm old and unattractive.

'I hate to say it, but I'm glad I'm old and unattractive.'

Aww Grace - I don't believe it

I really hate the idea that if the girls were in care it was somehow okay or they were available and asking for it. That the fault somehow lies with their families for not protecting them. Even if these girls were damaged and susceptible to people who asked them to do these things, they were still children.

Bill - having been a "vulnerable teen", I thought attention from older men was validation, but had enough "nouss" not to follow through. I don't know how we can help.

Inkanta - I'm almost at that invisible age.

I think things are moving I the right direction Grace. If one good thing has come out of this it's the fact that people working in social care can't just dismiss the abuse as 'relationships' and sanction and facilitate it. It would be a lot harder for them not to report now.

The stories about what happened in the homes were awful. The 'carers' were paying for taxis to drive them backwards and forwards to their pimps, giving them permission to take them out, and treating the girls with contempt and disgust while taking no action against the people abusing them.

388

www.dw.com/en/thousands-of-refugee-children-simply-disappear/a-19020934

www.dw.com/en/afghanistans-minister-of-refugees-no-agreement-on-taking-back-deportees-from-germany/a-19020715

www.dw.com/en/the-costs-of-the-refugee-crisis/a-19016394

I haven't caught up with the rest of the thread yet but I just wanted to return to Popper and Soros. Popper's paradox of tolerance is the well-known relativism argument, which, philosophically, there's little or no answer to. Relativism moves societies to an impasse because of political, conceptual or ideological paralysis (the inability to take a position) and infinite regress (the 'whataboutery' nature of arguments). Popper talked about protecting your own values (he was referring to 'our' liberal values) to try to go beyond the whataboutery and political paralysis of relativism (infinite tolerance). I actually don't mind Soro's Open Borders if, as according to the mission statement, they aim to spread European liberal values elsewhere. What I do have a problem with is that the mechanism that has been adopted in order to achieve this is clearly bonkers. This makes me think that there's obviously some political goal behind all of this because any layperson can see that 'spreading liberal values' by migrating peoples with illiberal attitudes to the origin of these values, rather than spreading these values outwards, is crazy. Whether it's for the benefit of the Global Governance-type of rule, I don't know.

Inequality of also hard to live with. There's a lot of evidence (the book 'The Spirit level') that extreme inequality creates problems in societies for everybody - even the rich. Eleven measures were used such as crime and incarceration rates, mental health, obesity, educational attainment, etc.. People at the top are also affected by crime, etc. as they can't hide themselves away consistently. Also, on an individual level, it's hard for people to live with extreme inequality (e.g., slavery) in terms of their own feelings and emotions, so ordinary people fare better in more equal societies. But, as societies equalise, we are then back to the paradox of tolerance, freedom, equality, whatever you want to call it.

So, what we are seeing could be a theoretical move, to try and rid societies of the constant cycle of relativism (communism)/inequality (capitalism) by the Bilderberg group of rich people, academics, theoreticians, etc.. Whatever is happening, I doubt very much that it has been accidental or circumstantial. The migration that we are seeing has also been from predominantly Islamic nations - why? We don't have any answers to this question either. There are precedents for bribery, deal-making and mutual back-slapping.

So - no answers from me, either.

I think it is just the world getting richer, travel and communication getting cheaper and a demographic "youth buldge" in the Islamic world. This youth buldge of young people with nothing productive to do with their lives because they live in relatively unsuccessful societies is now on the move to places where they feel their aspirations can be met.

I suppose one could argue that rather than bringing millions of people rapidly into Europe, it would be easier to bring the "good governance" to them. Of course that would look an awful lot like imperialism, and I don't think anyone in Europe has the stomach for that.

GraceKelly spoke about nouss which I must say has been very important in my life. Perhaps that instinct is what is missing in the youngsters. I suppose it can be taught to a degree, but I wonder if the conditions nowadays are so different that young people do not acquire that facility.

GraceKelly ..... I'd have thought the Sikh and Hindu girls came from very good families.
fourmummy ...... Relativism moves societies to an impasse because of political, conceptual or ideological paralysis (the inability to take a position).

I think one of the reasons why Sikh and Hindu girls and boys tend to stay on the straight & narrow is because they do come from so-called good families, as GraceKelly says. And the reason for this is their parents do not live by relativism. They insist that their children hold on to their cultural roots and traditions, so there does not tend to be acting up and door-slamming by teenagers. The parents do take a position.

However, in those families where there are emotional difficulties from one parent (father may be alcoholic or emotionally absent), then despite coming from an ordered background my observation is that some kids in a such family do not fare well.

Britt, yes, relativism can't ever work because once you adopt a relativist position, you are also then forced to accept the unacceptable. This is the main message of Animal Farm (for me) - the inability to say that something is good or bad. However, once we do decide to take a position and promote certain values over others, we are into a hierarchy (inequality).

claig said that the Global Elite " ... would live where they live now - in London, Paris, New York, Monte Carlo etc"

You see, I don't think they would and that's why I asked the question. They would visit of course, but I visualise the near future to be one of chaos, the towns & big cities overpopulated, large numbers unemployed (or peripatetically in work), pollution, parks reduced in size or extinguished altogether. Regardless of that $3 million dollar eyrie they can buy in a fancy-pants luxury block, the environment and foul air will be awful for everyone.

Food production will be even crueller than it is now. Already we know of indoor facilities where cows never see the light of day, never see a blade of grass and are fed a grain diet which is not natural for them (and bad for those who insist on eating beef and supporting extra-cruel farming methods).

And this is always where I come to a full stop about Soros and no borders. The landscape is going to be s**t for everyone, so where would the global elite choose to live? It's either in the mountains of some country, or close to an ocean - which suggests to me there will be massive No Go areas in every country against regular folk.

www.thelocal.de/20160203/nearly-5000-refugee-children-missing-in-germany-report

I won't assume a conspiracy where incompetence and stupidity can explain a situation. Leadership in Europe looks very weak. I think it is down to muddled thinking and poor structures. I think something will have to give, and I reckon the time horizon is about 5 years max. Populations will demand that their governments confront reality.

Interesting article, written in November. The writer called it:
www.nytimes.com/2015/11/14/opinion/swedens-self-inflicted-nightmare.html?_r=0

We can't do anyone else any good, if we descend into social unrest ourselves. I think that is a self evident statement. So the question is, how much can we absorb before we start having unrest? The hard left thinks our capacity to absorb is infinitely elastic and anyone who questions that is a xenophobe or racist. Until recently, I always considered myself to the left, but I think that's just plain silly.

Britt - check out the land ownership in Southern chile.