Sex Attacks in Cologne and other European Cities Part VIII

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Let the debate continue.....

Yasmin Alibhai Brown agreed with Jess Phillips in the 'i' newspaper yesterday.

Still haven't had a personal response from my MP. Only an automated response upon first contacting via email.

paleblue I saw Yasmin AB's article as well and thought how odd. The whole panel gave the impression that Jess Phillips was alienating them at the time

What is the agenda here? I cannot understand the thinking of bright and supposedly clever women like Merkal. There seems to be no urgency from any government and there hasn't been for sometime . How could they not see this coming?

Manipulation of figures - but if we ("ordinary" women in the street) have seen it coming for a decade - you'd have thought someone in power would too. E.g., the whole "every migrant is intellectually superior to all of you (waves arms furiously) and every migrant is an enormous contributor to both society and the tax system) - when those of us with eyes can perhaps see it's not quite so.

Take for example the gang rape of a girl in Manchester by 3 men celebrating Eid (curious, in the west we get pissed and let off fireworks, not go out raping) - the girl and her family were subjected to abuse by up to 50 family members day-in, day-out heckling them in and outside the courtroom.

Now if I were to go on trial I'd be lucky if I could muster one supporter, never mind 50. My friends and family would be at work you see... 50 "independently wealthy" friends is quite an achievement I'd have thought.

And as far as immigration goes, we get soundbites with regards to reducing EU immigration - but I don't see anyone having a problem with the French family next door, or the Germans across the street, or the Polish family at school.

Out of the EU, people don't have a problem with the American family, or Australian backpackers, or South African interns, or Colombian ballet teachers.

Elephants again.

Chipstick A few of us on this, and other, threads have argued that there must be an ideological/political hand at work behind the chaos. The theories espoused so far are:

• USA and, to a degree, some European countries, have made a deal with Saudi Arabia concerning migrants/turning a blind eye to Wahhabism (there is a precedent for this stemming from the 1970s oil crisis)
• blundering mistakes by leaders of some European countries
• Karl Popper's/Plato's paradox of tolerance (Plato's = freedom, but similar): Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. "We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal” (Karl Popper)
• billionaire/Bilderberger class/political elites striving toward a specific (unbeknown to us) goal

'I cannot otherwise understand why for the life of me I am made to feel like a racist or a xenophobe simply for wanting a sensible immigration policy like Canada's.'

My theory is that the Canada and Australia are wiser than us and have an ability to fend off ridiculous manipulations like 'racist' and 'xenophobic'. Infact they just DO NOT engage with it. They very pragmatically do what needs to be done.

The British in particular have been slow off the mark, - as we cannot resist defending and shutting up when told to do so, but since Cologne there has been a change - and those manipulations are seen for what they are, and no longer work.

Thank God we are evolving at last. There are NO 'undiscussables' any more particularly where womens' rights are concerned

Dotty, non-EU migration to the UK has fallen considerably. I believe it's EU migration which is high at the moment.

I like the sound of that Karl Popper chap, four.

iirc, he also made some good points about free speech and intellectual enquiry.

It is difficult for us to undersand the EU agenda because self-destruction does not make any sense. Afterall, even the great and the good will be caught in the morass and decline in living space and quality of life.

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3402136/PETER-OBORNE-brains-Dave-s-EU-trickery-Prince-Darkness.html

But it appears that Mandelson is advising Cameron on the so-called renegotiations currently underway.

Secondly, it seems that Cameron misled about bombing Syria. If you recall he originally told the Commons there were 70,000 "moderate" fighters on the ground, ready to join the battle against ISIS. About 3 weeks ago Cameron quietly acknowledged this actually was not the case, in fact the "moderate" fighters include relatively hardline Islamists. The PM has misled the Commons, in the same way that Blair misled over WMD & Saddam.

Despite border checks going up again, unfortunately the EU will continue to allow very large amounts of immigration; irrelevant whether they are asylum seekers or economic migrants. The point is a huge swathe of humanity, the majority of whom are hostile to Europe and despise the Western way of life, and what do you do with them without altering - for the worse and permanently - the lives of countless indigenous peoples.

There is something else going on here, as some of you have alluded to. It's not lack of workers for the next generation's pension pot (as Merkel foolishly stated); it's nothing to do with oil money, so what could it be?

Could it be acquisition of Arabs lands? Turkey (soon to be EU), Syria and Iraq all abut each other. They are in the midst of countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iran, but it would be a start if this was a land grab, in the same way that Rachman in the Sixties would get his tenants out. So the European Empire would have a huge, continuous swathe under its control: Britain, the continent, Greece, Turkey, Syria, Iraq - all joined together by land.

The other part to my theory is as this land grab cannot be achieved without American assistance, then part of the deal might be for USA to have a bigger and safer presence in the East. Currently in the part of the world, USA has bases in Turkey, Kuwait and Israel.

Even if I am a little bit correct, it means that the leaders of every country involved (incl USA) have thrown its citizens under the bus for bringing into their midst overcrowding and danger.

Lumela He did indeed. This is from Wiki:

Sir Karl Raimund Popper CH FBA FRS[4] (28 July 1902 – 17 September 1994) was an Austrian-British philosopher and professor. He is generally regarded as one of the greatest philosophers of science of the 20th century.

In political discourse, he is known for his vigorous defence of liberal democracy and the principles of social criticism that he came to believe made a flourishing "open society" possible. His political philosophy embraces ideas from all major democratic political ideologies and attempts to reconcile them: socialism/social democracy, libertarianism/classical liberalism and conservatism.

And as far as immigration goes, we get soundbites with regards to reducing EU immigration - but I don't see anyone having a problem with the French family next door, or the Germans across the street, or the Polish family at school

I never like to say this because we have Poles in our family, friends etc and at dc school. But we have had massive massive issues with lone males ( and some families) living in dense housing on our street from Romania and Lithuania, Poland and Albania. The problems have been immense and on going, with endless police call outs, endless ambulance attendance, and endless SS involvement. Mainly due to really violent endless fighting and anti social behavior. We a multi cultural area, we have large mulit nationals near us, we have people from a vast range of countries living near us and around us, and never had issues.

^^ and I faced sexism.

I have heard back from MN about having a web chat with David Davies. Apparently we can just run one ourselves: invite him on at a certain time, have a new thread up (or use an existing one).

TBH I think if we're getting an MP on MNHQ could run us an advert like they usually do for web chats. Has anybody out there done a web chat on this site before? I'm at my tech limits here...

Britain has had her Dark Ages and then the Reformation. We had a very class-ridden society between the Wars and into the Fifties. it is the Sixties that started to loosen up many assumptions. Loads of sexism nevertheless in the Seventies, but this country has persevered.

What I am trying to say is - we have paid our dues. We are at a different point in our development than, say, Lithuania or the Baltics are. But our ongoing development keeps being slowed down, because we have to stop and absorb the attitudes and beliefs of societies that are 50 years behind us, but at least my two examples are European. But the biggest threat are those attitudes that come from a completely different mindset with whom we have nothing in common. There is no shared history between UK and those countries in the ME-NA. Our terms of reference are different, outlook is different but the most important factor is: they are intolerant of everyone who does not share their religion.

I agree with AMouseLived about problems with Lithuanians, Polish and Albanians. The latter are from a country that for decades cut itself off from all communication with others, even Yugoslavia, when it used to be, curiously enough, Maoist. It is now 50% Sunni Muslim.

That's odd Lumela, they usually seem to support MP webchats. Maybe Davis is NQOCD. TBH I think behind the scenes Mumsnet's view on these things will chime far more with the Guardian's than the people on this thread. And that though they will tolerate discussion they won't facilitate campaigning.

Incidentally, I've come across a very interesting conference on Rotherham. It's been organised by Jayne Senior who ran Risky Business which was the only organisation which actually tried to stop the abuse. She is an amazing woman, would love to see a we chat with her. Alexis Jay, Louise Casey and some of the survivors themselves are speaking. The tickets are £195.00 so a bit pricey though.

Six arrested in Lyon. Planning to attack sex clubs then leave for Syria.

Forgot the link to the conference!

www.thestar.co.uk/news/rotherham-abuse-survivors-to-share-their-stories-at-conference-1-7708643

Women supporting rapists is certainly not unique to Islam. At my (white, British) rapist's trial he had a gang of supporters every day, and most were women. They threatened and verbally abused the jury etc. after the verdict was delivered.

'But our ongoing development keeps being slowed down, because we have to stop and absorb the attitudes and beliefs of societies that are 50 years behind us ... '

Yes I agree with your thinking.

Despite the pressure NOT to challenge misogynist based attitudes coming in from other countries, we HAVE to challenge them now and be pugnacious about it. Women are men' equals here, that's how we work, and call us all the names you like for saying so - but that's how we are going to continue.

Misogyny is not a religion by the way - that's the wool pulled over our eyes. It's men choosing to see women as second class citizens.

We still have a class ridden society Britt. Its part of the reason the girls in Rotherham were seen as expendable.

BillSykes …. Whether one likes it or not, you'll find it was Griffin of the BNP who first brought the sex grooming to our attention but was howled down. In 2004 he was arrested and tried twice, but acquitted. At that time the groomings had already been going on for 7 years, and I remember watching a BBC doc called "The Secret Agent". It took 10 yrs before the main media picked up on it, during which time many girls were corrupted. So the powers-that-be were covering up way back.

I think this is a really difficult issue.

I think women are right to be concerned about large scale coordinated public sexual violence, and the fact that the police and government response has been so crap.

But our own citizens already commit sexual violence at incredibly high levels, and it's ridiculous to deny this. 85000-90000 rapes a year. The only difference is the modus operandi.

One is coordinated in advance by a large group, committed in public. They rely on the sheer weight of numbers to avoid punishment. The police take little interest because sexual violence doesn't really count as 'proper' terrorism. Women are told to stay at home and given Impractical 'self protection' advice.

The other is mostly committed individually or opportunistically, often in private, after gaining a woman's trust. They rely on rape culture to avoid punishment. The police take little interest because it's too hard to prosecute, and the woman's probably lying. Women are again given ludicrous 'self protection' advice.

Basically, rapey men will use whatever options are open to them to attack women and undermine their right to safety and autonomy. And the systems in place to protect women are woefully inadequate whoever the perpetrator is, because people only start to take notice when it's men who are harmed and whose freedom is curtailed. ('Innocent until proven guilty' etc)

Addressing rape culture, police attitudes and the justice system is what's needed in both cases imo. The fact that, in Germany, saying 'no' doesnt even mean it's legally rape shows that western culture has more than enough of its own problems.

Why did the Cologne police not call for reinforcements and take swift action? Why did the mayor tell women to stay at home rather than improving policing? Probably because that's how they deal with sexual violence normally (ignore, minimise, put the onus on women) and why would they change their approach for this case? It's not as if it's new for VAWG to be treated as unimportant.

Bill I'm pleased if that's the case. But I looked at the ONS stats for the last quarter. Everything increased. www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migration1/migration-statistics-quarterly-report/november-2015/stb-msqr-november-2015.html
What am I missing?